[westphone]

I previously post that my crankshaft seized. It turned out the crankshaft bearing did not have adequate oil cooling, as it partially welded together. They opened the engine and let me checked it out, it looked like the same stuff when I was fixing diesel engines during student days, but that is only my assessment. I partially welded on 1-3-5 cylinder.

Naturally I asked for the official response from BMW, the reply is

(1) I am not using their oil, as I bring in my own oil from Mobil that conforms to LL01

(2) I should not drive like a maniac and do tail sliding, because in this case the oil pressure in the sump couldn't keep up with the rev.

It sounds fishy on both replies, because why not just say you HAVE to use BMW oil in the user manual. Secondly if I can't slide the car, then how can I track the car? This was what some of the commercial advertised I thought. Yes as a maniac I get 10.1 km/l out of the 6 pot, I just feel things don't add up. I certainly don't want to have another engine related failure in 3 years.

Unrelated issue my old man wants to get a 5er, but we are putting that on hold because this crankshaft experience we feel just ain't up to par. Your opinion is appreciated on why the car breaks and if the dealer is providing real answers.

Chuck

[dape90]

Hi,

I won't comment on everything you have put here. It's very detailed and it's clear much homework has been done.

The bit the got to me is the oil argument that BMW put forwards. What a complete load of shite they have said to you. If you are using a spec that they have approved in the owners manual then it's doesn't matter. This is not a valid excuse.
I would do my nut if they said that to me.

BMW don't make oil, they essentially buy it like the rest of us. Just in much larger quantity. So saying that you 'didn't by BMW oil' is simply a joke.

Don't take any crap on this from BMW.

D

[ttimbo]

So, are they not honoring warranty? If that's the case, then I suggest you ask to have the matter escalated. As long as the oil is the correct grade for the car and you maintained the correct oil level, they have no argument. You do NOT have to buy oil from a BMW dealer. As to your driving style...what, are you driving that way all the time? No, of course not, and it is a performance car that ought to be able to stand this. Indeed, if you go to any of the BMW driving course, you'll do that and a lot worse. So, are they saying the car was designed for this? Then I want my money back!!

Do a bit of research. "BMW N55 oil starvation" There have been other cases, and BMW has honoured warranty.

[westphone]

They did honor about the warranty. It is just the reason they give keep revolving around not using their oil. I will do more homework with this N55 starvation issue, and thank you very much.

[AusF20/F48]

Originally Posted by westphone

They did honor about the warranty. It is just the reason they give keep revolving around not using their oil. I will do more homework with this N55 starvation issue, and thank you very much.

Good to hear that your BMW dealer saw some sense.
You only have to look in their industrial bins to see that they do not use BMW oil or other parts.
Most dealer workshops source a common brand (in bulk) that complies to the standards.
BMW knows it cannot force you to use their 'branded' Oil to conform to a warrantee.
It could become a warrantee issue if the vehicle was not deemed to be used in a proper manner or was being used for sponsored racing. There is a difference between taking your car out on a 'open' track day every now and again and racing it within a club.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by AusF20/F48

BMW knows it cannot force you to use their 'branded' Oil to conform to a warrantee.

I think they did with the E39 M5, which was only allowed to run a specific Castrol oil, TWS 10W-60.

[dishy]

BMW shouldnt have even mentioned point (1) to you, if you use what the manual states you must use. It's quite specific there.

With regards to driving style, I'd be careful about what you actually tell them with regards to this. It could be seen by BMW as an excuse, to not apply the warranty due to the vehicle being abused. I'm not sure what I'm allowed to do with my car in terms of racing and warranty.. I did want to run it at a drag strip one day, likely wont.


So, is the conclusion then that the doughnut made the oil go away from the pickup pipe in the sump? The m135i is a wet sump, yes?

Googled and found this thread about a dipstick on a m235i race car:
http://www.babybmw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73372

[No one]

Originally Posted by AusF20/F48

Good to hear that your BMW dealer saw some sense.

It did not. It was the BMW headquarters that accepted the warranty claim (dealers only pass those on up). What the dealer saw were those bullshit answer points quoted (and mentioned in the initial thread as well) :

(1) they are willing to punish for not buying oil from them;
(2) a passion for doughnuts is a harmful addiction.

Originally Posted by AusF20/F48

You only have to look in their industrial bins to see that they do not use BMW oil or other parts.

Oh, really? Instead of looking into the invoice, you mean? I did: minding last but one time watching my oil change I saw the new oil was in those branded 1 litre bottles, sealed , observing a bailer last time made me wonder how I could know about the bailer's contents. They lead me into their highly restricted warehouse and showed the Shell BMW oil barrels the bailers were said to be filled from (I saw some empty ones around too). For what it's worth. Anyway, the dealer must actually use what they charge you for, otherwise it's a mere fraud (usually illegal).

[AusF20/F48]

Oh, really? Instead of looking into the invoice, you mean? I did: minding last but one time watching my oil change I saw the new oil was in those branded 1 litre bottles, sealed , observing a bailer last time made me wonder how I could know about the bailer's contents. They lead me into their highly restricted warehouse and showed the Shell BMW oil barrels the bailers were said to be filled from (I saw some empty ones around too). For what it's worth. Anyway, the dealer must actually use what they charge you for, otherwise it's a mere fraud (usually illegal).[/QUOTE]

Your dealer must be a one of kind
I know of several 'brand' dealers that use (non genuine) quality parts as replacements on their non warrantee repairs and services. I have seen a Mercedes workshop using non MB rotors, pads, filters etc on cars still under warrantee as those parts are considered consumables.
Oil is a consumable.

[SteveC]

In my book, driving a car at maximum revs with the rear wheels spinning is abuse. Rev limiters are based on controlling the ignition but the ignition has no control when the wheels are spinning and the drivetrain has too much momentum. In such cases, oil surge can starve the oil pick-up, which will in turn starve overworked bearings of cooling and lubricating oil flow. Bearings will heat up and expand until friction takes over. Beyond a certain temperature oil no longer works as it flows away from hot spots (watch oil dance away from the heat in a hot pan), causing massive and almost instantaneous overheating and catastrophic failure.

You could argue that a modern engine should not starve of oil within the car's entire performance envelope, but I would counter that by saying that road cars were never designed to go in tight circles at peak revs with their rear tyres going up in smoke. In such a manoeuvre, the car is no longer turning, as designed... it is simply rotating; centrifugal force constantly throwing the oil to one side of the sump and away from the oil pick-up.

Driving on a track and even drifting through corners is not the same. The car is over-steering and drifting, but not in a tight circle, so there will be nothing like the same centrifugal force acting on the oil

[ovekvam]

I don't agree. It is easier for the rev limiter to avoid revving too high if there is wheelspin, as there is less momentum in the driveline only, than a car rolling down the road. Once you cut the power, the RPM will slow down faster than the case would be without wheelspin. The power needed to spin the tyres in a donut is also less than what you need for maximum acceleration, so it should generate less heat.

Doing a donut will not cause very high centripetal acceleration for the engine. It will in fact be rather low compared to cornering at the limit. The engine is almost stationary, and rotating very slowly.

The abuse is done towards the tyres, not the engine. The only problem I can see regarding the engine, is that there will be very limited cooling with the car going slowly. There should usually be plenty of supervision that can put the engine into limp mode before it gets warm enough to self destruct.

[SteveC]

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. When the tyres are hooked up, the engine is restrained by the weight of the car. When the wheels are spinning freely, there's no resistance and all the engine's drive is going into accelerating the rotating mass of the drive train (crankshaft, gearbox, flywheel & 4 wheels) rather than moving the car's 1.5 tons. With such a high power impetus into an unloaded drive train, its highly likely you'll spin it up to the point it over revs the engine.

As regards centrifugal force, cars are designed to go fast round corners....they are not designed to rotate around a central point. What likely causes the problem is the direction and duration of the forces generated.

Bottom line is the car seized while performing a manoeuvre that its not designed to perform.

Finally, the heat control you talk about is designed to control and remove the heat of combustion. The heat I'm talking about is localized heat caused by friction. Oil is used to lubricate and remove heat. If oil is not present in a bearing it will heat, expand, bind, heat further due to friction, then seize, regardless of what's happening to the coolant temperature, which may very well be normal. Even if both oil and coolant temperature were monitored it wouldn't help, as due to starvation, the oil is not coming into contact with the hot spots in the bearing and is therefore not overheating.

[ttimbo]

Actually, the centrifugal force generated in performing a doughnut burnout is pretty low, especially at the centre (near the engine). It's not as if the car is rotating around that circle very fast. More likely, there was an oil cooling or starvation issue, which has featured on other posts relating to N55 engine failures. I would expect an engine in this type of car to be able to withstand this sort of treatment, provided it is well-managed and not occurring too frequently.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. When the tyres are hooked up, the engine is restrained by the weight of the car. When the wheels are spinning freely, there's no resistance and all the engine's drive is going into accelerating the rotating mass of the drive train (crankshaft, gearbox, flywheel & 4 wheels) rather than moving the car's 1.5 tons. With such a high power impetus into an unloaded drive train, its highly likely you'll spin it up to the point it over revs the engine.

I get what you are saying, but I don't agree. Let's say you have a manual transmission car, and put it in neutral. Then floor the throttle. This is no issue at all for the engine management. It will not over rev. Once that ignition is cut, the RPM can not keep rising. If you are driving downhill without wheelspin, it is a lot more difficult, as the driveline will drag the engine along.

I do however agree that is seems like a starvation issue, but I don't quite see how doing donuts should cause any problems for the oil pump. It must be a design flaw in this engine type, since most other cars can do donuts without any other problems than blowing up the tyres.

Maybe it was just a coincidence that it happened during the donuts.

[westphone]

Thanks for all the reply.

To be honest I did think being the fact it is a BMW and the fact the car is equipped with dry sump, I should be able to all those things Chris Harris or Tiff Needell do all the time sliding around at will, or at least try.

I guess I cannot take liberty with this car, or cars in general. Thanks again.

[ovekvam]

Do you hear any ticking from the valve tappets after pushing the car? This was very common on the M52 generation of engines, particularly after driving hard in corners at low speed. I never quite understood exactly why it happened, but it must have been related to the oil pump. I haven't heard this sound from the new generation of line six engines.

With the M52, you got this very loud sound and some loss of power, but it never seemed to harm the engine. After some "normal" driving, it was okay again.

[westphone]

No I have not encountered your experience of ticking from the valve tappets. I did drive hard or at least try in the mountains with many tight corners and hairpins. I have not heard strange noise.

Speak of the M52, my friend was kind enough to let me borrow his American version S52 E36 M3. It feels older bimmers are more solid, but I don't know why.