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      01-27-2011, 02:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Eccentric View Post
Um Scott.. when the hell did REAL BMW fans ever care about selling 2 million units? I get it, you make money then keep the enthusiasts happy.

But in my opinion, it should be the opposite.. you know classic, classy bimmer style. You should make the enthusiasts happy (NA, High revving) and then profit from the cars the enthusiasts buy their spouses, and the fun, fuel efficient cars that the rest will purchase.

Stop becoming the GM of Europe. Seriously, it's starting to scare me.
REAL BMW fans started caring about sales when they understood that the auto industry has changes dramatically and BMW needs to change to survive. Just like ANY major company, they must adapt or die. This is a principle you must understand in order to move forward with this conversation. I care about getting my pure performance cars, if that means BMW must sell money makers to be able to deliver that, I'm all for it.

GM of Europe? You can not be serious. It's amazing how many ridiculous claims people will make about something they know very little about.

If any German brand is the GM of Europe, that's VW with 10 brands under their belts. BMW has BMW, mini, and a limited license to Rolls Royce. I invite you to explain how BMW can possibly be the GM of Europe.
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      01-27-2011, 02:54 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ View Post
They wouldn't bring the Mustang down to a FWD, econo-box "Grand Touring" level. The Mustang/Shelby team has a passion, and is why they are so successful today.


So BMW should be more like Ford then? With their lineup of cheap, soleless cars? That would be really something.

This 1-GT is OK for citys, women, daughters of BMW-owners, or as a BMW for beginners.

And the money they earn on it will help them make future "real" BMWs even better
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      01-27-2011, 03:59 PM   #69
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So BMW should be more like Ford then? With their lineup of cheap, soleless cars? That would be really something.

This 1-GT is OK for citys, women, daughters of BMW-owners, or as a BMW for beginners.

And the money they earn on it will help them make future "real" BMWs even better
What, isn't that is what BMW is doing? And that is assuming that I agree with you that Ford's other cars are cheap and soulless.

At least they clearly separate the Mustang from the Fiesta.....

And BMW for beginners? Uh, isn't that the point of the 128i? What is the 1 series GT going to teach you about sports driving? Nothing.
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      01-27-2011, 04:08 PM   #70
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You know, I would prefer that the 1 GT was RWD too, believe me. And I will never buy the 1-GT either. But if BMW wants to make it and people buy them instead of Golf or a Toyota, its totally OK for me.

And remember 90% of the people buying BMWs never do any sportsdriving anyway. They just buy one to have something "sporty" to be stuck in traffic jams with :-)

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      01-27-2011, 04:26 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
REAL BMW fans started caring about sales when they understood that the auto industry has changes dramatically and BMW needs to change to survive. Just like ANY major company, they must adapt or die. This is a principle you must understand in order to move forward with this conversation. I care about getting my pure performance cars, if that means BMW must sell money makers to be able to deliver that, I'm all for it.

GM of Europe? You can not be serious. It's amazing how many ridiculous claims people will make about something they know very little about.

If any German brand is the GM of Europe, that's VW with 10 brands under their belts. BMW has BMW, mini, and a limited license to Rolls Royce. I invite you to explain how BMW can possibly be the GM of Europe.
The GM reference is the perceived desire to try and be a jack of all trades, rather than sticking with an established and proven formula.

It would be on a smaller scale of vehicles, yes, with less "brands" as you say....instead BMW appears to want to compete in every single segment out there...but the idea that a company can give you any kind of car, regardless of the customer's aims, sounds like a jack of all trades, right? Well what is the worst thing about a jack of all trades? They don't do anything WELL! They do everything decent, because the focus is all over the place...

To me, that seems like an attempt to gain volume of units moved...but at the expense of the soul and identity that BMW has built over the years...I truly believe they should stick with what got them to where they are...innovative vehicles that are packed with great great engineering and technology...but with the focus that every single car wearing the logo will be RWD and sporty.

I don't care how many soccer moms don't know that their 528i is RWD, it isn't worth those kinds of sales to lose your identity...
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      01-27-2011, 05:17 PM   #72
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I'm gonna laugh at all of you who are bashing this car when it comes out and runs circles around all the other FWD competition out there. You're making assumptions about something you haven't even driven or have an idea of how it will perform.
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      01-27-2011, 05:17 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
The GM reference is the perceived desire to try and be a jack of all trades, rather than sticking with an established and proven formula.

It would be on a smaller scale of vehicles, yes, with less "brands" as you say....instead BMW appears to want to compete in every single segment out there...but the idea that a company can give you any kind of car, regardless of the customer's aims, sounds like a jack of all trades, right? Well what is the worst thing about a jack of all trades? They don't do anything WELL! They do everything decent, because the focus is all over the place...

To me, that seems like an attempt to gain volume of units moved...but at the expense of the soul and identity that BMW has built over the years...I truly believe they should stick with what got them to where they are...innovative vehicles that are packed with great great engineering and technology...but with the focus that every single car wearing the logo will be RWD and sporty.

I don't care how many soccer moms don't know that their 528i is RWD, it isn't worth those kinds of sales to lose your identity...

The formula you are referring to is aged. Other auto makers are advancing. Years ago, the "formula" worked and BMW had an incredible edge on the competition. Well, guess what? The competition is closing in and its closing in very fast. Guess what else? The competition is making a lot more money, has a lot more resources, and are growing at rapid rates. Sticking with what got them there is suggesting not adapting to the market and growing as the competition grows. You seem like a clever fella, you know what happens when everyone adapts and you stay sitting there, doing what worked 20-30 years ago, dont you?

Brand identity is important, yes. I dont see this as a lose of identity, I see it as a opportunity to gain the ability to KEEP building amazing enthusiast vehicles without charging us an arm and a leg, watering down the true performance cars, and pulling the incredible warranty they offer which others dont.

With that said, when I drive my BMW, I am not driving an identity around, I am driving an awesome car which brings a giant smile to my face every time I drive it. You are suggesting that you would not enjoy driving a BMW as much if a front wheel drive BMW existed. Why? Do you drive your vehicle as a status symbol? or do you drive your vehicle because you love and enjoy it.

I know one thing for sure, I would rather BMW figure out how to grow than to get swept up by trying to stick with the original "formula" from 20-30 years ago and not adapting. Ill tell you what else, no matter how many FF cars and eco cars BMW makes, how my M3 makes me feel is not going to change.

But apparently, according to most in this thread, maintaining an identity and letting it sink is more important than to go through some changes and keep building awesome cars while making money makers at the same time.
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      01-27-2011, 05:58 PM   #74
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looks like a hatchback version of a prius.
I agree.
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      01-27-2011, 09:53 PM   #75
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Mark the date.........Germans finally figured out how to make Crack! WTF design!
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      01-28-2011, 07:42 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
The formula you are referring to is aged. Other auto makers are advancing. Years ago, the "formula" worked and BMW had an incredible edge on the competition. Well, guess what? The competition is closing in and its closing in very fast. Guess what else? The competition is making a lot more money, has a lot more resources, and are growing at rapid rates. Sticking with what got them there is suggesting not adapting to the market and growing as the competition grows. You seem like a clever fella, you know what happens when everyone adapts and you stay sitting there, doing what worked 20-30 years ago, dont you?

Brand identity is important, yes. I dont see this as a lose of identity, I see it as a opportunity to gain the ability to KEEP building amazing enthusiast vehicles without charging us an arm and a leg, watering down the true performance cars, and pulling the incredible warranty they offer which others dont.

With that said, when I drive my BMW, I am not driving an identity around, I am driving an awesome car which brings a giant smile to my face every time I drive it. You are suggesting that you would not enjoy driving a BMW as much if a front wheel drive BMW existed. Why? Do you drive your vehicle as a status symbol? or do you drive your vehicle because you love and enjoy it.

I know one thing for sure, I would rather BMW figure out how to grow than to get swept up by trying to stick with the original "formula" from 20-30 years ago and not adapting. Ill tell you what else, no matter how many FF cars and eco cars BMW makes, how my M3 makes me feel is not going to change.

But apparently, according to most in this thread, maintaining an identity and letting it sink is more important than to go through some changes and keep building awesome cars while making money makers at the same time.
Reading comprehension?

I never said anything about status...you brought that up on your own...it appears you missed my point entirely...

You, or BMW in this case, "adapts" by using their wonderful technology and engineering in order to stay ahead of the competition. I don't care if they use turbos or a 3 cylinder diesel in combination with electric motors...the cars should still be inherently BMW...which means sporty and RWD...

Instead of making cookie-cutter cars that look like what everyone else is making, continue to distinguish yourself by having an entire fleet of cars that feels unlike anything else on the road...

For example, I just leased a 2011 135. It is now my 4th straight BMW...I looked at Audi A4s/S4s, the GTI, the STI, the EVO, the MB C CLass, and the Lexus IS 350...there is a reason I got another Bimmer, and it has nothing to do with status, obviously, since a 1er is hardly up there on the cockometer...

That reason, plainly, is the way the car drives and feels. There was nothing else close in this price range, as far as feel goes. That is established by 2 things--the RWD aspect and the sporty nature of the car...I just think if the company goes down this road, with econoboxes and FWD and whatever the hell else, you will begin to lose that separation, that identity...

As it currently sits, I can get in any BMW and have a general idea of how the thing is going to work because of the brand's identity. Every single car...and I have driven nearly everything the brand has to offer down in Spartanburg, SC...Can you say that for Ford? Can you say that for VW? Can you say that for GM? Of course not...because, again, those companies try to be the best at everything, and end up being good at almost nothing...

/rant.
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      01-28-2011, 03:35 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Reading comprehension?

I never said anything about status...you brought that up on your own...it appears you missed my point entirely...

You, or BMW in this case, "adapts" by using their wonderful technology and engineering in order to stay ahead of the competition. I don't care if they use turbos or a 3 cylinder diesel in combination with electric motors...the cars should still be inherently BMW...which means sporty and RWD...

Instead of making cookie-cutter cars that look like what everyone else is making, continue to distinguish yourself by having an entire fleet of cars that feels unlike anything else on the road...

For example, I just leased a 2011 135. It is now my 4th straight BMW...I looked at Audi A4s/S4s, the GTI, the STI, the EVO, the MB C CLass, and the Lexus IS 350...there is a reason I got another Bimmer, and it has nothing to do with status, obviously, since a 1er is hardly up there on the cockometer...

That reason, plainly, is the way the car drives and feels. There was nothing else close in this price range, as far as feel goes. That is established by 2 things--the RWD aspect and the sporty nature of the car...I just think if the company goes down this road, with econoboxes and FWD and whatever the hell else, you will begin to lose that separation, that identity...

As it currently sits, I can get in any BMW and have a general idea of how the thing is going to work because of the brand's identity. Every single car...and I have driven nearly everything the brand has to offer down in Spartanburg, SC...Can you say that for Ford? Can you say that for VW? Can you say that for GM? Of course not...because, again, those companies try to be the best at everything, and end up being good at almost nothing...

/rant.

Seems like the majority of this discussion is based on perceptions.

BMW means sporty and RWD - this is a very generic statement and yes, since BMWs have been sporty and RWD in the past, changing that does not mean its no longer a BMW. The 3-series has a xi model... does that mean its no longer a BMW or that it watered down the brand? I dont think so, it supports a market that needs xi models. I dont see how Front wheel drive is any different since its not catering to me, you, mostly no one on this forum... but it caters to people looking for eco car with a lot of space. Just like the Xi models cater to people with certain needs.

"Instead of making cookie-cutter cars that look like what everyone else is making, continue to distinguish yourself by having an entire fleet of cars that feels unlike anything else on the road..." Unfortunately, most car shoppers are not looking for what me, you and most folks on this forum are looking for which is a car that feels like nothing else on the road. Yes, BMW has distinguished itself by doing this BUT again, they need to SELL more vehicles to people they are currently NOT selling vehicles to which are the eco shoppers, etc.

Congrats on your new BMW. Just like many of us enthusiasts, once you get accustomed to BMWs handling and feel, you keep going back for more. However, BMW is NOT targeting you, me, or the majority of people on this forum with these new class of vehicles, they are targeting a market they currently DONT have a presence in or dominate.

Identity. Change always gets peoples panties in a bunch. What I believe BMW is going to do is eventually create a new identity for this class of vehicles, or they can be the one who keeps everything under one name and still make cars that feel great.

The jack of all trades theory... Ford and GM are nothing close to BMW by ANY means. As a matter of fact, its absurd to even try to compare them. Now if you are talking about VW being good at nothing... you are way off point. VW is the daddy of business my friend.

VW IS GOOD AT ALMOST ANYTHING THEY DO. VW single handedly brought back Lamborghini from the grave. VW saved Audis ass and made it a world class competitor in a VERY short amount of time. VW has the fastest (give or take a few MPH) production car in the world, Bugatti. VW was almost bought out by Porsche (which has the highest profit margin in the industry) and what happened? They turned around and picked up porsche as their tenth brand.

ANY car manufacturer would DREAM to have the type of success that VW has, or even a few of the brands that VW owns and kicks ass with. Bad comparison my friend.
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      05-08-2011, 05:50 PM   #78
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The GT is BMW's answer to the large slice of the MPV segment in europe where the passenger is more important. BMW did not want a Van with an all-round glasshouse they wanted something that offers a spacious interior and great flexibility but in a car-like dynamic shape. A car that will offer mainstream volume competitors a very difficult time in the market. Especially for customers who want a more premium choice when choosing a car of this type.
Scott with this car/MPV be able to fit three kids in child seat across the back, if they are unable to do this then it's not really going to be what I think the market requirers. I've just had to buy an MPV to fit my third kid, I would have loved my money to have gone in BMW coffers rather than VW's.
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      05-09-2011, 04:03 AM   #79
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In Color.
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The M850i is evidence that BMW have got their mojo back when it comes to dynamic sports cars...
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      05-10-2011, 12:11 PM   #80
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In Color.
Interesting. I think one of the keys will be the driving dynamics of the FWD BMW's and how (or if) they will differ greatly from Mini.

- J
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