[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by JDMAF

I think its the product thats the problem. Im in a $60k (which is itself part of the problem as mentioned above) 2017 340i 6spd after being away from the brand for awhile (a few subaru STi's) My last BMW was a 6 spd 2008 X3. Think about that a second - a small suv with a manual transmission. Anyone making that anymore? I think you can get a Mazda or a stripped subaru. But the X3 was a blast to drive - steering was direct not electronically massaged or translated or whatever, body control was great and it was honest and simple. And it was based on an old design of the prior 3 series (E36 I believe) which shows that BMW still had it together when it made those cars. My current F30 is so dumbed down dynamically (And it has the Msport, MPPSK, and manual tranny) even (really especially) in its most sporty settings. It just never seems to commit to being a sporty car. too muted and too soft. Its like BMW either is incapable of or unwilling to make a dedicated sport sedan that doesnt have an M on its badge. To me thats the problem

Don't forget your 3 series is about the same size as the e39 5-series. Oh and of course fuel economy/emissions regulations have forced manufacturers to an ever smaller box by which they can differentiate themselves.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

Where is Scott26? Funny he is not around when news are bad.

It's a trend in the US Market. Other premium manufacturers - Example Mercedes are down by around 11%. However BMW does expect next months sales to rise because of the recent Hurricance activity in the US. As no doubt does everybody.

Elsewhere its again the same story. Everyone else is up whilst the US is down.
However there is buoyancy with an all new US-Built X3 on the horizon with US pre-orders close to overtaking original F25 pre-orders.

Globally it is the new and relatively new products driving sales. Namely the BMWi models ,7er,X1,4erLCi and of course the all new 5er which has seen majority increase due to the arrival of the new Touring and China Li variant.

Heading to the IAA with some positive news especially in relation to all new products such as the X3,M5,6er GT and the refreshed i3 and i3S as well as conceptual previews of the Z4,8er and all new X7 utilising BMWs joint developed Fuel Cell technology. But also that BMW for the first half of 2017 is the Worlds most profitable manufacturer and that BMW are close to their initial projection of selling 100,000 units of EV and assisted models by 2018.

Towards the end of the year there are still premieres for the LA and Tokyo motor shows with the Tokyo debut being of considerable interest. And in 2018 more timely product in the guise of the next generation 3er, and X5 as well as the production X2,8er and Z4 and the gorgeous i8 Roadster and performance i8S.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It's a trend in the US Market. Other premium manufacturers - Example Mercedes are down by around 11%. However BMW does expect next months sales to rise because of the recent Hurricance activity in the US. As no doubt does everybody.

Elsewhere its again the same story. Everyone else is up whilst the US is down.
However there is buoyancy with an all new US-Built X3 on the horizon with US pre-orders close to overtaking original F25 pre-orders.

Globally it is the new and relatively new products driving sales. Namely the BMWi models ,7er,X1,4erLCi and of course the all new 5er which has seen majority increase due to the arrival of the new Touring and China Li variant.

Heading to the IAA with some positive news especially in relation to all new products such as the X3,M5,6er GT and the refreshed i3 and i3S as well as conceptual previews of the Z4,8er and all new X7 utilising BMWs joint developed Fuel Cell technology. But also that BMW for the first half of 2017 is the Worlds most profitable manufacturer and that BMW are close to their initial projection of selling 100,000 units of EV and assisted models by 2018.

Towards the end of the year there are still premieres for the LA and Tokyo motor shows with the Tokyo debut being of considerable interest. And in 2018 more timely product in the guise of the next generation 3er, and X5 as well as the production X2,8er and Z4 and the gorgeous i8 Roadster and performance i8S.

Yes we understand all that but i am a very regular BMW private buyer in the UK. Currently have four in my garage. BMW has gone for short term gain but is likely to suffer long term pain. Why? Buyers like me who don't use finance are no longer prepared to underwrite larger and larger depreciation due to BMW UK's policy of massive discounts and pre registrations which is driving down second hand values. Secondly the cars sold on finance are now in an enormous credit bubble that is not sustainable.

BMW has some nice new product and I like the look of new styling in the X2 and Z4 but the bread and butter vehicles just lack any design flair. New 5 series X3 etc all very safe design but pretty boring really.

I have been buying Porsche and Land Rover again recently. Each for their own reasons, Porsche just know how to make some great cars for the enthusiasts something BMW has lost its way on a bit as it has become a massive mass producer like Ford and GM. Land Rover - I just love their bold styling and they are rapidly matching BMW in the other important areas.

I looked at an i3 as a city option but just too expensive to lease in the UK. I would rather pay more and wait for something more exciting like Mission E from Porsche or I Pace from Jaguar.

So I love my BMW's been a customer for 40 years but just starting to fall out of love. I guess I am not alone

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It's a trend in the US Market. Other premium manufacturers - Example Mercedes are down by around 11%.

Not everyone though. Audi was actually up in August, and even MB YTD decrease is lower than BMW (2.9% v. 5%). I get that it's tough times for everyone but BMW has gone from leading only a few years back to #3.

[kadify]

I think one of the biggest issues is perceived quality, which a few members have touched on so far (BimmerMat135, ah3nyc, nujabes24). Disregarding actually quality issues with these cars, if someone goes into a BMW dealership, an Audi dealership and a MB dealership and tests an F30, a B9 A4/A5 or a W205 C there are just obvious interior quality disparities.

You CANNOT get any sort of decent quality leather in an F30 unless you special order a car, at considerable cost, or buy an M. And the fact of the matter is many people in america don't want to do either of those things. Considering BMW won't send us a decent cloth or alcantara option because fake leather is seen as a higher option in america, it's weird that they have no nice quality leather options unless you step up a class to a 5 series or better. The simple fact is, there are a lot of people that get in BMWs who don't care about the driving dynamics or all the tech gizmos that they may have (which they are matched in with the new A4 and C class). What they care about is how nice does everything feel in the cabin, how well is everything bolted together? And the fact is BMWs are shit in that department.

That's why both Audi and MB are doing better lately in that class. Audi and MB are also doing better selling A6s and E classes because even with the new 5 series, both brands have a better perception of luxury and quality compared to BMW. BMW has dug the grave they're in now and they're going to have a hard time crawling out of it, at least in the American market. They're slowly numbing the one thing that made them interesting (driving dynamics) and they don't have enough luxury or tech to be competitive, and be better than, the other german brands.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by kadify

I think one of the biggest issues is perceived quality, which a few members have touched on so far (BimmerMat135, ah3nyc, nujabes24). Disregarding actually quality issues with these cars, if someone goes into a BMW dealership, an Audi dealership and a MB dealership and tests an F30, a B9 A4/A5 or a W205 C there are just obvious interior quality disparities.

You CANNOT get any sort of decent quality leather in an F30 unless you special order a car, at considerable cost, or buy an M. And the fact of the matter is many people in america don't want to do either of those things. Considering BMW won't send us a decent cloth or alcantara option because fake leather is seen as a higher option in america, it's weird that they have no nice quality leather options unless you step up a class to a 5 series or better. The simple fact is, there are a lot of people that get in BMWs who don't care about the driving dynamics or all the tech gizmos that they may have (which they are matched in with the new A4 and C class). What they care about is how nice does everything feel in the cabin, how well is everything bolted together? And the fact is BMWs are shit in that department.

That's why both Audi and MB are doing better lately in that class. Audi and MB are also doing better selling A6s and E classes because even with the new 5 series, both brands have a better perception of luxury and quality compared to BMW. BMW has dug the grave they're in now and they're going to have a hard time crawling out of it, at least in the American market. They're slowly numbing the one thing that made them interesting (driving dynamics) and they don't have enough luxury or tech to be competitive, and be better than, the other german brands.

The new 5er is in a strong position with substantial increase globally now that the Touring and China based LI models have become available. The 5er is also a driving force in the US Market also. So there is customers who have a strong belief in the product's competence and competitiveness as well as the technology it offers.
I should point out that in Europe the new 5er dominates.

Of course new products are better than their predecessors and of course are the models driving global sales. In 2018 toward the end of the year we will see the G20 3er.

I did not know A4 is not doing well as expected? Whether it is DieselGate? Or the fact that the car is bland from a design perspective? Or the fact that there is evidence of cost cutting inside it is apparently earmarked for a facelift in the not so distant future.
Audi has the latest SUV models which is why customers are going for the latest.
Next year both BMW and Mercedes bring forth replacements for existing core volume models.

Also if Audi is doing well? Why has the purpose built stand at the IAA been abondoned in favour of sharing Hall space with the rest of the VW Group.
Still a massive Hall but not as significant as the past two events.

In the space of a year there will Be the new X3,an all new X2 plus the next generation of X4 and X5. So BMW are in a prime position to take advantage of the further expected increase in SUV units. As well as more essential models like the 3er and of course the niche models such as the 8er,Z4 and i8 series.

[shanecarmaster1]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The 5er is also a driving force in the US Market also. So there is customers who have a strong belief in the product's competence and competitiveness as well as the technology it offers.

Last time I checked, its sales are plummeting, along with the brand new 7 series.

Every time I go to the dealer (which I've been doing since around 2000), they seem less and less excited about the cars they sell, as if they know too that they're snooze-fests. And, I'm a real customer who won't be returning.

[raysspl]

cool

[kadify]

Originally Posted by shanecarmaster1

Last time I checked, its sales are plummeting, along with the brand new 7 series.

Every time I go to the dealer (which I've been doing since around 2000), they seem less and less excited about the cars they sell, as if they know too that they're snooze-fests. And, I'm a real customer who won't be returning.

Yeah IDK what SCOTT26 is talking about because at least in my market (which is an incredibly strong market at the moment) my dealer is having issues selling the newer model cars. I haven't seen more than a handful of the new 5 or 7s in my area. And regarding the a4 not selling I'm not up to date on Audi's ytd sales figures but the A4s in my area are selling like hotcakes.

[ah3nyc]

You can only defend the brand so far. Quality has gone down drastically; not just interior. Currently my 2016 f30 msport has brake issues which bmw dealer refused to fix. Before that creaking from the body; they refused to fix it. It's the whole approach to brand and customers. Bmw corporate took side of dealer where I bought the car saying no brake issues; not even a brake flush to see if that fixes issues.

It's more than quality it's lack of attempting to help customers with cars that have issues you would've never had 5-8 years ago. Being around over dozen bmws of all types. Bmw lately you can tell has cut corners to save money, interior, mechanically, brakes, etc. I don't get treated like I drive a BMW anymore; with these cars costing 60k and having mechanical issues that 15k kias don't have. They don't stand behind the product; we run into issues.

Chinese buying cars can only go so far; they gave up on US customers and will pay dearly in next few years. Many enthusiasts will go to Audi, Mercedes, Porsche because as great as bmws are; quality isn't worth the money.

[ah3nyc]

Btw having had several 3series from e46, e90 and 2 F models. The brakes and steering feel went from bmw to a Lexus. Too much luxury not enough ultimate driving machine. Oh and the interior on F 3series looks worse than all of its competitors.

[kadify]

I agree with ah3nyc, if you talk about absolute quality my BMW was a POS starting the day I bought it. It took taking BMW to court to get any sort of solution to the issues and I am still having problems with the car. This will be my last BMW for those reasons alone, but even ignoring the mechanical problems, I doubt I'd get into another BMW lease after this one when the other competitors have more complete and well rounded offers. I'll say I think BMW makes some of the best engines and transmissions but when everything else feels subpar it takes a special type of person to buy a car just because of the engine.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

I got three words for you Audi and Mercedes Benz- both of their sales are UP and both are kicking BMWs arse at this point. I have been driving BMWs for the past 12 years and my 435GC (Beautiful car- sports package with front splitter ) is going in for an RS3 or an S5 Sportback- havent made the decision yet.. but my next car will be an Audi.

The 435 is a nice car but the ultimate driving machine? LOL not even close- its the BEST BUICK THAT BMW HAS EVER MADE. I drove E46 ZHPs for 7 years- THEY were the ultimate driving machines. Sooo if your BMW and your no longer making the ultimate driving machines (aside from the M2 and M240) then you better be making your interiors better- and BMWs are just bland when it comes to the interiors. No "Virtual cockpit", no Burmester sound system with very cool aluminum dri
lled covers, no dual screens, no Verona leather with quilting I could go on- but BMW is simply a generation behind with their interiors. The S5 Sportback compares VERY favorably with the 440- the RS3 is in a league that BMW left behind- a small, powerful SEDAN (Remember the M3 used to have 4 doors- now the M3 is just too big) but the TECH INSIDE THE AUDIS and Mercs kick BMWs ass. I believe the sales figures are starting to bear this out. Oh and I would take an aging S6 or RS7 over a 5 or 7 series ANY DAY - and I am not alone.

[michal12]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The new 5er is in a strong position with substantial increase globally now that the Touring and China based LI models have become available. The 5er is also a driving force in the US Market also. So there is customers who have a strong belief in the product's competence and competitiveness as well as the technology it offers.
I should point out that in Europe the new 5er dominates.

Of course new products are better than their predecessors and of course are the models driving global sales. In 2018 toward the end of the year we will see the G20 3er.

I did not know A4 is not doing well as expected? Whether it is DieselGate? Or the fact that the car is bland from a design perspective? Or the fact that there is evidence of cost cutting inside it is apparently earmarked for a facelift in the not so distant future.
Audi has the latest SUV models which is why customers are going for the latest.
Next year both BMW and Mercedes bring forth replacements for existing core volume models.

Also if Audi is doing well? Why has the purpose built stand at the IAA been abondoned in favour of sharing Hall space with the rest of the VW Group.
Still a massive Hall but not as significant as the past two events.

In the space of a year there will Be the new X3,an all new X2 plus the next generation of X4 and X5. So BMW are in a prime position to take advantage of the further expected increase in SUV units. As well as more essential models like the 3er and of course the niche models such as the 8er,Z4 and i8 series.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The new 5er is in a strong position with substantial increase globally now that the Touring and China based LI models have become available. The 5er is also a driving force in the US Market also. So there is customers who have a strong belief in the product's competence and competitiveness as well as the technology it offers.
I should point out that in Europe the new 5er dominates.

Of course new products are better than their predecessors and of course are the models driving global sales. In 2018 toward the end of the year we will see the G20 3er.

I did not know A4 is not doing well as expected? Whether it is DieselGate? Or the fact that the car is bland from a design perspective? Or the fact that there is evidence of cost cutting inside it is apparently earmarked for a facelift in the not so distant future.
Audi has the latest SUV models which is why customers are going for the latest.
Next year both BMW and Mercedes bring forth replacements for existing core volume models.

Also if Audi is doing well? Why has the purpose built stand at the IAA been abondoned in favour of sharing Hall space with the rest of the VW Group.
Still a massive Hall but not as significant as the past two events.

In the space of a year there will Be the new X3,an all new X2 plus the next generation of X4 and X5. So BMW are in a prime position to take advantage of the further expected increase in SUV units. As well as more essential models like the 3er and of course the niche models such as the 8er,Z4 and i8 series.

In some parts of Europe 5 series indeed sells like hotcakes. I see lots of them.

[E90M3JETS]

Very disappointing results for BMW NA. i3 and i8 sales continue their "nose first" sales decline while X4 and X6 suffer from competing against Macan, GLC and new Q5. Hoping the novelty around the new 5 and X3 would be enough to keep sales flat during the rest of 2017.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

I think that 5 and 7 series has to be the most unnerving- new launch models, the "best of the best" from BMW and those two models are clearly trailing their Mercedes and Audi counterparts- and the Audi 6 and 7 series are at the end of their life cycle and are still more desirable than the newest of Munichs new. Totally terrible news for BMW

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by ZilberGrau ZHP

I think that 5 and 7 series has to be the most unnerving- new launch models, the "best of the best" from BMW and those two models are clearly trailing their Mercedes and Audi counterparts- and the Audi 6 and 7 series are at the end of their life cycle and are still more desirable than the newest of Munichs new. Totally terrible news for BMW

I'm not saying the A6 and A7 are not desirable but how did you come to the conclusion that they're more desirable than what BMW offers? If we're going by North America sales alone to determine desirability, since 2010, the A6 on average sells half of what the 5er does on an annual basis so I don't see the trend of how the A6 is more desirable than the 5 when the same sales trend has been the same for the last 7 years.

As for A8 vs. 7er, both pale in comparison to the S-Class but yet again, I don't see where you can make the argument where the A8 is more desirable than the 7er when in North America, The A8 has never broken 7,000 sales annually since 2002?

The only real growth and gain where Audi has achieved is in the small/entry level luxury segment with the A4 but everywhere else, it's pretty much in the same boat as BMW.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by E90M3JETS

Very disappointing results for BMW NA. i3 and i8 sales continue their "nose first" sales decline while X4 and X6 suffer from competing against Macan, GLC and new Q5. Hoping the novelty around the new 5 and X3 would be enough to keep sales flat during the rest of 2017.

I am no BMW apologist, but this result shouldn't surprise anyone. Surely it's not (explicitly) a manifestation of poor quality/product, but rather BMW's model lifecycle (vs. peers) and the pull forward for demand in prior years (see leading sales positions in '15/'16).

I don't love every car BMW makes, but it's hard to argue that the current and coming stable is not better than the one that it's replacing.

With respect to the volume model G-series cars, they seem better than F-series cars in ways the F-series cares weren't vs. the outgoing E-series. The new X3, the current X1 and the forthcoming 3/4 series will likely be best in class. Shortly after we'll see the new X5.

In the M arena, we have more models and more performance for more budgets. The M235R, Thermal expansion, hipo M3/M4/M2s should get some credit.

Anyway, lots of vitriol here, but seems to me that BMW is listening to its enthusiast base while maintaining the discipline needed to remain an independent manufacturer.

[Laki021]

What a bunch of rubbish in this topic...

Whoever is not satisfied with BMW is free to change the brand, good luck finding something better that does not cost 50% more... You will come back in a few years anyway... the grass is always greener on the other side...

It's funny when people criticize BMW for not being the "Ultimate driving machine" and in the same post stating that they are moving to Audi. Well, if pure driving pleasure is what you are looking for, you are at the wrong place, better get Sony PS4 it has more feedback than any Audi car... It's incredible how disconnected their steering is...

Virtual cockpit, who the hell needs virtual cockpit when you have the best HUD on the market? Completely pointless and redundant gadget. I'm very happy that BMW is sticking with the more traditional gauges.
Burmester? Why is that better than Bowers & Wilkins???

At the end, most of the problems people are complaining about here are simply called "Progress". They are stuck in the old days, when they were younger, everything felt better... I still have an E90 325i, and no, it is not a better drivers car than the G30 in any sense, not even close.

[hufington]

My personal experience is that a lot of my hardcore BMW fan friends are switching to Audi and MB lately. Even the ones that would never ever drive anything else are less reluctant to test drive Audi and MB.
I am also thinking of buying an E63 to replace my current F10 550. In my opinion, the cars in the BMW line started sharing too many parts, i.e the interior of the 7 series looks very similar to the G30. The rear of the 3, 5 and 7 series are looking almost the same from a distance. Some may call it a corporate design language but to me it is lack of creativity. Back in the days, when you had a 7 series, it would justify the extra amount that you've paid in terms of its looks and power and build quality over a lower series sedan by BMW. Now. The g30 550 has more horsepower than the 750, accelerates faster, stops faster and has almost the same space inside. That may be the reason that they had 55% of decease in sales in August in comparison to 2016. Why would I pay 20-30K more to buy a 750 while the looks are almost identical, 5 series is faster, has the same interior equipment like the dash, screen, gauges, gear lever etc.?
Another reason why they started loosing ground is that they stopped the MSD system. That was giving the chance to many no-BMW buyers the chance to switch to BMW making decent monthly payments even with less than perfect credit. Since they stopped that and with the current money factor and residuals, the monthly payments that they are asking for the same MSRP is much higher than a year ago, which is a turn off for most buyers. They have been watching Audi making a lot of profit with less number of cars moved and they decided to increase their profits. but as one other poster mentioned above, if you are trying to become a mass producer and trying to sell the highest number of vehicles in all segments, you cannot also achieve higher profits simultaneously. BMW has to make up their mind and decided what they want. They better hurry because I am seeing a lot of people shifting to the competitor brands.

[kadify]

I think one of the biggest issues, disregarding current loyal BMW owners, is that no one who isn't a loyal BMW fan is going to walk into a BMW dealership and also an Audi or MB dealership and buy any of the current BMW offerings based on their current designs. Maybe they will drive better than the comparable Audis or MBs, but they certainly are going to feel worse inside which is why they're losing so many sales. BMW doesn't only have to appeal to loyalists, they also need to appeal to the mass market and they're in a weird position where they're losing what originally brought the loyalists to their brand but also aren't appealing to the rest of the market.

[ah3nyc]

Originally Posted by hufington

My personal experience is that a lot of my hardcore BMW fan friends are switching to Audi and MB lately. Even the ones that would never ever drive anything else are less reluctant to test drive Audi and MB.
I am also thinking of buying an E63 to replace my current F10 550. In my opinion, the cars in the BMW line started sharing too many parts, i.e the interior of the 7 series looks very similar to the G30. The rear of the 3, 5 and 7 series are looking almost the same from a distance. Some may call it a corporate design language but to me it is lack of creativity. Back in the days, when you had a 7 series, it would justify the extra amount that you've paid in terms of its looks and power and build quality over a lower series sedan by BMW. Now. The g30 550 has more horsepower than the 750, accelerates faster, stops faster and has almost the same space inside. That may be the reason that they had 55% of decease in sales in August in comparison to 2016. Why would I pay 20-30K more to buy a 750 while the looks are almost identical, 5 series is faster, has the same interior equipment like the dash, screen, gauges, gear lever etc.?
Another reason why they started loosing ground is that they stopped the MSD system. That was giving the chance to many no-BMW buyers the chance to switch to BMW making decent monthly payments even with less than perfect credit. Since they stopped that and with the current money factor and residuals, the monthly payments that they are asking for the same MSRP is much higher than a year ago, which is a turn off for most buyers. They have been watching Audi making a lot of profit with less number of cars moved and they decided to increase their profits. but as one other poster mentioned above, if you are trying to become a mass producer and trying to sell the highest number of vehicles in all segments, you cannot also achieve higher profits simultaneously. BMW has to make up their mind and decided what they want. They better hurry because I am seeing a lot of people shifting to the competitor brands.

A few factors play into people leaving BMW.

1). Quality of products declined over last few generations of vehicles.
2). Cars are moving more to appease not only bmw drivers but "LUXURY" car drivers. Most Bmw's drive like a Lexus rather a BMW; the feeling has been lost.
3). Many BMW's are leased and the fact was you could've got a sweet deal with MSD, fleet, Euro delivery, driving events etc. BMW pulled almost all of those incentives away. Then they hiked all the rates on the vehicles. I'm not saying it wasn't the right or wrong thing to do. However before people spent less and got more. Now they spend more and get less.
4). Bmw took away maintenance program.
5). Loyalists will stay with BMW regardless if they do anything wrong. If we don't speak up and show them with our wallet that the products aren't what true Bmw enthusiasts want then the products will be more diluted with each generation.

I have spoken out about this multiple times to just get judged by die-hard nuts of BMW. I've been proud owner of over 12 BMW's since 2004; however the fact is I think my days are numbered. Bmw just does not care about its loyal customers. They are out hunting maximum profit per vehicle while making the cars worse to drive and more expensive. Being that I am not a marketing genius but do understand business. Bmw will pay the price as we see dearly every month with massive sale declines. How much longer can they sustain these increases? Who knows but come next year and the year after when 3 vehicles are up for lease; I will look elsewhere.