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      08-06-2013, 06:12 AM   #1
diesel20
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Stop/start on turbo

Basic turbo care has always been to not switch the car off straight after a hard drive. It makes sense, give the turbo a chance to spool down with all fluids still pumping to cool and lubricate.

Stop/start as I'm sure you all know will kill the engine regardless of how hard you have been pushing the engine before bringing the car to a stop.

Have BMW designed around this in some way such as keeping the oil and water pumps working after the engine has switched off or can we expect premature part failures on our engines because of this?

An audi salesman was telling me on their cars with stop/start they are replacing the starter motor as part of the 60000km service
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      08-06-2013, 07:53 AM   #2
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There's an electric water pump to keep the turbo cooled. BMWs use an ISG (integrated starter/generator) which doesn't require replacing, much more robust and brushless to minimise wear and tear.
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      08-06-2013, 09:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcomma View Post
There's an electric water pump to keep the turbo cooled. BMWs use an ISG (integrated starter/generator) which doesn't require replacing, much more robust and brushless to minimise wear and tear.
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      08-06-2013, 09:37 AM   #4
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The turbos also now use caramic bushes so no need to idle after a run.
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      08-06-2013, 09:37 AM   #5
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BMW's early start/stops just had a more robust starter. So called Phase II EfficientDynamics (F20 included) have ISGs:

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-...d-5dr-scooped/

Quote:
Phase II of Efficient Dynamics covers the electrification of the auxiliary equipment. This move calls for an integrated starter-generator, a more powerful storage battery, on-demand oil and water pumps, a lighter AC compressor, an engine and transmission oil pre-heater and a new automatic gearbox compatible with the start-stop system.
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      08-06-2013, 10:54 AM   #6
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Thanks for the info guys! Found it impossible to believe bmw wouldn't have come up with a solution for such a basic problem, but puts my mind at ease as I find myself driving my car quite hard, quite often, even if it's just traffic light to traffic light (who can blame me?), so every time the engine turns off my mind tells me this is messing up my car.

South Africa is a hot country and where I live is high above sea level, turbos work hard here and I've heard so many stories of VW turbos going unless treated with the utmost of care. Obviously this is last generation cars. Cars with Stop/start and other new technologies are still fairly unknown in terms of reliability.

But a vw aint no BMW!!!!
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      08-06-2013, 02:31 PM   #7
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If it really bothers you just get into the habit of disabling it after you start up, that's what I do.
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      08-06-2013, 04:46 PM   #8
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VW's TDI engines have a lot of DPF issues - I have two friends who have the 1.6 105 unit (one A1, one golf mk6) and both needed a DPF clean at about 30k miles.

However BMW aren't entirely faultless for fair comparison - why they put their spaghetti-strength timing chains at the back of the engine, god only knows (only logical explanation is planned obsolescence)
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      08-06-2013, 05:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob UK View Post
If it really bothers you just get into the habit of disabling it after you start up, that's what I do.

I really should. Using some very vague maths I simply don't believe it saves a significant amount of fuel and is more of an emissions test beater, as is eco pro which makes the car terrible to drive.

I will admit with eco pro I haven't done any back to back comparisons. But then I cannot imagine driving an entire tank of fuel using it, why buy a 125i to be driven like that?

Back to stop/start. My previous car, a golf 5 GTI gave a reading when it was idling of 1.1l per hour with the aircon compressor running. 0.9l if it wasn't, it was a 2.0T engine so mechanically similar, but the GTI is far more straight forwards, no efficient dynamics trickery to save a drop here or there.

Factor in all the fancy fuel saving measure applied to the bmw and I doubt that the fuel using during idling time can be any more, probably less.

So how much fuel am I actually saving with this feature? 1l per one hour of idling. I've gotten quite good at manipulating it using the brake pedal, if you hold it very lightly the car wont switch off. You can also just switch it back on by turning the steering wheel. I prefer to have the engine running if I need to launch quickly to say cross a busy road with very brief gaps in traffic.

So do I bother with it, using those techniques to manipulate when needed.

My driving style is completely uneconomical anyway, I'm generally getting 12l/100km, surprisingly very similar to my GTI which I also drove hard but it had no fancy technology to save fuel consumption other than the engine itself featuring FSI which is supposed to use less fuel at cruising speeds. so do a few drops saved using stop/start actually matter Or do I just turn the damn thing off?

I would use it if it offered significant gains in fuel consumption, and if its not putting additional wear on any mechanical parts then why not. But it is a fairly irritating feature to live with that much I will admit. Plus the music level dips when the engine turns on again, I often listen to music loud so rhis is yet another tiny irritation that makes me question if the system is worth bothering with.

Hopefully my fuel consumption in general will improve as the engine gets more run in. A car mechanically similar to a GTI, driven in the same way but with so many fuel saving should at least offer consumption that is a little better,
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      08-06-2013, 06:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel20 View Post
I will admit with eco pro I haven't done any back to back comparisons. But then I cannot imagine driving an entire tank of fuel using it, why buy a 125i to be driven like that?
I have tested it quite a bit in the 116i. If I try to drive consumption friendly, I get the same fuel consumption in Eco Pro as in Comfort Mode. The best I can do seems to be around 5L/100km.

I find Eco Pro rather comfortable when driving in a queue, or on slippery ice. The pedal mapping makes it easy to give very soft inputs to the engine.

Otherwise I prefer to do most of my driving in Comfort Mode, and inspired driving (track action ++) in DSC Off.
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      08-07-2013, 05:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
I have tested it quite a bit in the 116i. If I try to drive consumption friendly, I get the same fuel consumption in Eco Pro as in Comfort Mode. The best I can do seems to be around 5L/100km.

I find Eco Pro rather comfortable when driving in a queue, or on slippery ice. The pedal mapping makes it easy to give very soft inputs to the engine.

Otherwise I prefer to do most of my driving in Comfort Mode, and inspired driving (track action ++) in DSC Off.
+1

Agreed about Eco Pro, it has its uses. Here in the UK i usually dont need the AC at super strength, so its a nice touch that it dumbs that down (With the system in Auto at the lowest level, and say 19-20 degrees, it still does a good job at giving me brain freeze ). I have found tho that the different mappings only really affect consumption under acceleration as opposed to cruising. With that said, in and around town at 30mph or out on the motorway at cruise speeds, i engage Eco Pro for smoothness and saving juice. Sport almost everywhere else!

As for Start/Stop, its my first car with it - and ive got used to it. It saves me fuel whist stuck in traffic (on the work commute). No need to fool the engine by lightly pressing the brake pedal, surely if your waiting to jump into a gap or are anticipating to move you would keep it in gear and the clutch disengaged? (obviously, you dont have the luxury of this in an Auto, and i would agree, in this case Start/Stop is best turned off - i once test drove a scirocco with the DSG box, it cut out everytime i came to a stop, i hope the BMW is abit more intelligent?).

Ben
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      08-07-2013, 01:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenN View Post
+1

Agreed about Eco Pro, it has its uses. Here in the UK i usually dont need the AC at super strength, so its a nice touch that it dumbs that down (With the system in Auto at the lowest level, and say 19-20 degrees, it still does a good job at giving me brain freeze ). I have found tho that the different mappings only really affect consumption under acceleration as opposed to cruising. With that said, in and around town at 30mph or out on the motorway at cruise speeds, i engage Eco Pro for smoothness and saving juice. Sport almost everywhere else!

As for Start/Stop, its my first car with it - and ive got used to it. It saves me fuel whist stuck in traffic (on the work commute). No need to fool the engine by lightly pressing the brake pedal, surely if your waiting to jump into a gap or are anticipating to move you would keep it in gear and the clutch disengaged? (obviously, you dont have the luxury of this in an Auto, and i would agree, in this case Start/Stop is best turned off - i once test drove a scirocco with the DSG box, it cut out everytime i came to a stop, i hope the BMW is abit more intelligent?).

Ben
Auto. I do feel a little more r&d could have gone into the system. If I have my indicator on then I'm obviously not in stop/go traffic and there's a good chance I may need the car to respond quickly. Yet if I go forward just a couple meters in real stop/go traffic the engine won't turn off again.

Sure I could just turn the system off but a lot of more costly parts have been used to make up the "efficient dynamics" system. So either they must get it right or sell me the car cheaper without them and I'll put money saved towards my fuel bill
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      08-12-2013, 01:23 AM   #13
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Does this electric water pump (for cooling of the turbo) only work when Auto start/stop is applied?

Let's say in traffic, you stop and the Auto Start/Stop kicks in. If I understand it right, the electric water pump will keep the turbo cooled until the engine starts again?

But what if I go for a complete stop, and turn off the engine manually. Will the water pump kick in then to cool the turbo?

Normally, when I have been out driving a bit hard, I let the engine idle about a minute before I turn it off.
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      08-13-2013, 08:13 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papertiger View Post
Does this electric water pump (for cooling of the turbo) only work when Auto start/stop is applied?

Let's say in traffic, you stop and the Auto Start/Stop kicks in. If I understand it right, the electric water pump will keep the turbo cooled until the engine starts again?

But what if I go for a complete stop, and turn off the engine manually. Will the water pump kick in then to cool the turbo?

Normally, when I have been out driving a bit hard, I let the engine idle about a minute before I turn it off.
It's not a separate water pump for the turbo

The water pump for the entire engine (including turbo) is electrically driven - the ECU simply orders it to remain operational for a few minutes after the engine stops rotating.

The turbo bearings are ceramic and do not wear (hence oil is not needed), but the turbo housing would fatigue if not for the water cooling mechanism.

So when the start/stop halts the engine, the water pump remains flowing. Hence why you retain heat for longer in the cabin (also uses the water)

It's all in the engine guide book stickied above the main threads
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      08-14-2013, 10:01 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcomma View Post
There's an electric water pump to keep the turbo cooled. BMWs use an ISG (integrated starter/generator) which doesn't require replacing, much more robust and brushless to minimise wear and tear.
The starter and generator are still separated on F20.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...id=53624&hg=12
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      08-14-2013, 05:57 PM   #16
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I stand corrected, I guess the article I linked to was wrong (it was pre-launch I suppose)
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