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      04-02-2015, 12:38 AM   #1
dailym3
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Driver aids - always a good thing?

Let me preface this question by acknowledging that I am sure statistics will say that many lives are saved because of driver aids of one sort or another. My question is a little deeper than that simple fact. I started driving in the mid-80s, pre-driver aids. I had a couple of high power, RWD cars over the years, with no driver aids. I feel like I learned the limits of those cars and how to drive them properly partially because if I overdid it, I knew there would be a consequence with no safety net. I have wondered about the downsides of things like TC, stability control, even (gasp) ABS. In some ways I think these systems provide that safety cushion that makes people rely on them a little too much. I wonder if my own skills have eroded a bit because these systems don't force me to maintain that complete feel and control of the car? I also think about the majority out there that aren't rabid car enthusiasts like we are...are they worse drivers because they can drive poorly and still occasionally get bailed out by their computers? One last thought...do designers still try to optimize the balance and handling of cars (for situations when driver aids are completely turned off), or are they relying on driver aids too much?
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      04-02-2015, 10:25 AM   #2
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If you own one of those pre nanny cars and drive it regularly, I don't see your skills deteriorating. With that said if you don't or have never driven one without nanny's then I wouldn't exactly trust that person to drive pre nanny cars. My brother had an 1982 325 and would never take it out when it rained. First time he did was the last time he did. Those cars are/were dangerous unless you had some skills.

I agree that today we rely on the nannies especially if you started driving post nannies. Could you imagine someone who grew up with the safety features of today, and let them drive a 1982 325. They'd crash in minutes, especially if it was raining. Turning off all safety features today is still not like it was back then.
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      04-02-2015, 11:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretariat View Post
If you own one of those pre nanny cars and drive it regularly, I don't see your skills deteriorating. With that said if you don't or have never driven one without nanny's then I wouldn't exactly trust that person to drive pre nanny cars. My brother had an 1982 325 and would never take it out when it rained. First time he did was the last time he did. Those cars are/were dangerous unless you had some skills.

I agree that today we rely on the nannies especially if you started driving post nannies. Could you imagine someone who grew up with the safety features of today, and let them drive a 1982 325. They'd crash in minutes, especially if it was raining. Turning off all safety features today is still not like it was back then.
Good points. Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post on your first point. I haven't owned any pre-driver aid cars in many years now. I was speaking from when I owned them back in the day.
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      04-02-2015, 11:04 AM   #4
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I cringe every time I see one of those commercials with the lane departure warning or automatic brakes because I know people will begin to rely on them. Then, one day they get into their husband's car and change lanes without doing a head-check and cause a massive pileup. It's a recipe for disaster, if you ask me.
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      04-02-2015, 11:09 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I cringe every time I see one of those commercials with the lane departure warning or automatic brakes because I know people will begin to rely on them. Then, one day they get into their husband's car and change lanes without doing a head-check and cause a massive pileup. It's a recipe for disaster, if you ask me.
They're meant to be aids not replacements but yeah I feel like some people will think they're meant to be the latter.
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      04-02-2015, 12:08 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by fecurtis View Post
They're meant to be aids not replacements but yeah I feel like some people will think they're meant to be the latter.
The truth. People are so busy playing around on their phone.
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      04-02-2015, 12:23 PM   #7
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Detest it, all of it. About the only driving aids I like are power steering and ABS. I could see myself never owning another new(er) car. As long as I stay single in life and can buy what I want to buy, I'm always going to opt for small, fast, simpler cars. With newer BMWs not interesting me in the least, I'll drive my Z4M until it falls apart (at which point I might get another one). In a few years, I'm really looking forward to being able to import an old RH GT-R, MKIV Supra, All-Trac, etc. Hell, even a 91 MR2 Turbo will meet the 25 year requirement next year. I love those old JDM cars.

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      04-02-2015, 05:40 PM   #8
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Always a bad thing.
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      04-02-2015, 05:43 PM   #9
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I think traction control onward is where the nannies started to get out of hand. Power steering and ABS? No, I don't think they got too much "in the way" of the driving experience. I hate this new stuff. Overbearing TCS and Stability control systems, lane departure warning systems, radar guided cruise control (If I'm creeping up on someone on the highway, I want to effing PASS them, not slow down!), and premptive braking systems just piss me off. The only aids that have come along in recent memory that don't utterly piss me off: parking aids (sensors and backup cameras).
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      04-02-2015, 05:54 PM   #10
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ABS, power steering, and things of that era are not aids in the same way that blind spot detection is.
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      04-02-2015, 06:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happos2 View Post
The truth. People are so busy playing around on their phone.
Agreed, and sadly I think that is part of the reason that many of these features have been created. I shake my head every time I see that Infiniti Q50 commercial where the car's "safety" systems save the driver from situations caused by his own lack of attention to driving.
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      04-02-2015, 07:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHCCubs
Quote:
Originally Posted by happos2 View Post
The truth. People are so busy playing around on their phone.
Agreed, and sadly I think that is part of the reason that many of these features have been created. I shake my head every time I see that Infiniti Q50 commercial where the car's "safety" systems save the driver from situations caused by his own lack of attention to driving.
can't agree more

saw a chick in suv eating cereal from ceramic bowl and metal spoon at the traffic light the other day. Imagine if airbag goes off!?
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      04-02-2015, 07:15 PM   #13
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Driving aids or "nannies" are part of the reason cars are getting so much HP these days and why people who shouldn't be buying them are and then spending money making them even faster. I think it's crazy that people think the E9x M3 is too slow and that supercharging it is the only solution. I bet if the M3 didn't have DSC, they wouldn't think the car is too slow.

I've been driving with DSC off completely on the street for about 6 months now (and at the track for the last 5 years), and my driving has changed for the better. When I drove a friend's 991 GT3 at the track, I was actually able to say, "this car is too much for me to handle" because I don't enjoy driving cars that do the work for me. All while 991 GT3 owners are driving at the track with the nannies on and saying how easy the car is to drive.

I do think driving aids are good for the average driver. But I'd love a world where sports cars never had nannies so you'd buy the car that you felt comfortable with your driving ability.
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      04-02-2015, 08:03 PM   #14
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In my X1 I tend to drive with DSC off. But it's still never fully off, if I get a bit hot on an on/off ramp, the shit kicks in and annoys the hell out of me as I'm trying to correct and it is too. I think people aren't being trained to drive the way people used to get trained. I remember skid recovery was something I had to learn from my driving school. And that's another problem, driving school isn't mandatory in some places where it should be. I think there's more to driving aids and cell phones causing people to drive more carelessly.
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      04-02-2015, 08:50 PM   #15
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I messed around with my car with DSC off on twisties and under hand accel from 0...I learned to respect the car a lot more. I could only imagine how much worse this is on an even more powerful car. Two things I learned are: steering correction and throttle modulation. I only tried this stuff out once or twice and I feel I've matured a lot more than when I never tried it.

All the times I "slipped" I managed to catch luckily. I'll never try this stuff out again unless I'm in a more controlled environment.
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      04-04-2015, 01:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretariat View Post
If you own one of those pre nanny cars and drive it regularly, I don't see your skills deteriorating. With that said if you don't or have never driven one without nanny's then I wouldn't exactly trust that person to drive pre nanny cars. My brother had an 1982 325 and would never take it out when it rained. First time he did was the last time he did. Those cars are/were dangerous unless you had some skills.

I agree that today we rely on the nannies especially if you started driving post nannies. Could you imagine someone who grew up with the safety features of today, and let them drive a 1982 325. They'd crash in minutes, especially if it was raining. Turning off all safety features today is still not like it was back then.
LOL. Oh please! The E21 was an excellent handling car in the dry or in the rain; even on 1982 circa tires. We all got around just as fast and safe in 1982 in the rain in our BMWs as we do today. LOL.
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      04-04-2015, 01:19 PM   #17
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The nannies are in place because people buy high power cars and they have little to no experience in actually "controlling" the car. It is on those very moments when any buster can mash the accelerator, find that he is going too fast or too hot into a public street corner, and save his car and/or life with just some dirty drawers.

Personally, I think people should be required to take some sort of car control classes before getting these high hp performance cars. Where was that viral video of the tool in the new M4 who jumped the median in front of a cars & coffee meet?
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      04-06-2015, 10:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I cringe every time I see one of those commercials with the lane departure warning or automatic brakes because I know people will begin to rely on them. Then, one day they get into their husband's car and change lanes without doing a head-check and cause a massive pileup. It's a recipe for disaster, if you ask me.
Infiniti commercial comes in mind.

If a soccer mom backs out the driveway in such speed. They deserved to get t-boned by a school bus!

My friend used to drive S2000, and now he leased a GS for comfort. But he said the driver aids made him a lazy driver, all the rear view camera, cross traffic alert, blind spot monitor etc.

Driver assistance doesn't replace a bad driver.
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      04-08-2015, 12:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davis449 View Post
I think traction control onward is where the nannies started to get out of hand. Power steering and ABS? No, I don't think they got too much "in the way" of the driving experience. I hate this new stuff. Overbearing TCS and Stability control systems, lane departure warning systems, radar guided cruise control (If I'm creeping up on someone on the highway, I want to effing PASS them, not slow down!), and premptive braking systems just piss me off. The only aids that have come along in recent memory that don't utterly piss me off: parking aids (sensors and backup cameras).
How else do you expect people to safely text and drive!
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      04-08-2015, 01:10 PM   #20
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I'd say focus on the general population. the majority of people are average to poor drivers in terms of skill level. better tires, better brakes, better steering, better construction, better restraints, and finally driver aids have definitely reduced fatality rates in automotive collisions. I think for that reason alone, driver aids are worthwhile. Do they create 'false security'? Maybe....but do they save lives? surely.

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      04-08-2015, 01:34 PM   #21
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I want to go back to needing a hand crank to start the engine. Electric starter is for noobs!

Just for giggles - i am one of "those drivers who bought a high powered rwd car with no skills" ��. I am set to take a car control clinic though and go on to hpde as time permits. And keep in mind that "those" drivers help make cars like the m3/4 at the price point they are at. If restricted to only "qualified" drivers, i bet the m3/4 wouldnt even be available because the market would be so small...
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      04-08-2015, 05:14 PM   #22
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for the common driver (myself included), these aids are 100% necessary in emergency situations. Power steering alone has made driving heaps easier. ABS, for the common driver in panic, has helped heaps because locking one's brakes on a non abs car is pretty easy when in a panic.

Traction and stability control are for those who do not wish nor posses the proper skill in handling their car to its full potential. Last time I checked, most people just use their cars to get from A to B and possibly haul some crap.

Made the mistake of playing with my car with DSC off and almost lost control. Never again will I do it unless I practiced enough.

Really, taking these aids off or getting none of these driving aids are now a luxury for people who truly want to "drive". To be honest, I think driver's license should have "tiers" that accounts for power levels, ability to drive cars with less nannies, weight and the vehicle driven. One who has money and bought a Veyron does not have the right to simply flog it at a mountain road without the proper skills.
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