[mookie45]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

Mercedes and Lexus are doing it too. Audi is still being Audi, content to be in 4th place, leasing cars for a zillions dollars a month, and you know what? They've increased sales every month vs. the year prior for the past 59 months, even as people who couldn't or wouldn't pay for the Audi leases flocked over to Mercedes and BMW. And now they're considered the cool brand. Even Dieselgate washed right off them. That's how you build brand equity. Produce enough cars to keep demand strong and incentives down, and if people can't or won't pay for your car, that's fine, someone else will. What BMW was doing in their quest for sales crowns through incentives and market flooding was diminishing their brand, and I'm thankful to see it (hopefully) going away.

I'm still not 100% on this. Yes, MB has always commanded a premium compared to other brands but I do sense them coming down and trying to capture more market share. Same with Maserati, Porsche, Jaguar, and Alfa. They aren't doing their "exclusivity" thing anymore because they know they are missing out on greater sales/profits.

With Lexus, their leases are so much better than any other comparative brand in segment and probably the most common of the bunch. BUT in the end it's still a Toyota. I do not see them as building Brand Equity other than steamrolling the competition. As for Audi, like you said, they are 4th and happy being in 4th. To me it's VW with better suspension.

Would you be happy if BMW was 5th in its segment? At least it's more exclusive and you paid a lot more than you should for your car...

[Agni]

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

Been looking at the 4er lately. Curious to know what disappoints you with the 435i?

I have the 1st gen electric steering and it is pure junk. I know its better now, esp the ones in M2. Not sure if newer 4ers have improved streering. Def test drive one extensively to see if you like it. Also second biggest complaint is the transmission, its jerky and not very good in sport mode and way too soft and boring in normal mode.

[David70]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

Buying sales through inflated residuals and subvented money factors is not sustainable.

No, they need to sell the right number of cars. Artificially creating sales by lowering transaction prices lowers the resale, especially when the market is flooded with them three years later. It's like getting hit twice.

What you are seeing now is a market correction. And I'm glad it's happening. It's better for the brand long term, even if it means certain buyers jump ship because they can't steal the cars anymore. I'd like to see BMW go back to focusing on building the best cars, not the most cars.

Agree. The market for cars has been poor industry wide for many months and with it likely the residual values for these cars. They are likely trying to keep RV's close to actual, not inflating them to get sales today only to take a big hit when they are turned back in. If there was some evidence they weren't realistic and too low compared to the actual market I would think they have something.

Always surprises me with the number of people that think the answer to a slow market is to increase incentives, artificially increase RV's or MF's in the name of keeping sales numbers up when we really don't know if it would help long term profits.

[mikeriley]

Originally Posted by InsideMan

Less than 1% of deals were made with MSDs.

What residuals are you referring to? Can you give specific examples?

Simple.

7 series down 50, 60 and 40 percent last 3 months.

One year ago residual was approx 60 for 3 years. Now it's 52 or 54 depending on year or month.

[David70]

Are any of these "low residuals" not realistically what the car will be worth at the end of the term or are some just upset they aren't what they used to be?

[InsideMan]

Originally Posted by mikeriley

Simple.

7 series down 50, 60 and 40 percent last 3 months.

One year ago residual was approx 60 for 3 years. Now it's 52 or 54 depending on year or month.

Sales are down, but incentives are there, even on the 7-series. Prepare for the doors to be blown off the 2017 G12. You heard it here first...

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Agni

I have the 1st gen electric steering and it is pure junk. I know its better now, esp the ones in M2. Not sure if newer 4ers have improved streering. Def test drive one extensively to see if you like it. Also second biggest complaint is the transmission, its jerky and not very good in sport mode and way too soft and boring in normal mode.

hahaha. Did you have the MPPK?

[JRobUSC]

Originally Posted by mookie45

I'm still not 100% on this. Yes, MB has always commanded a premium compared to other brands but I do sense them coming down and trying to capture more market share. Same with Maserati, Porsche, Jaguar, and Alfa. They aren't doing their "exclusivity" thing anymore because they know they are missing out on greater sales/profits.

With Lexus, their leases are so much better than any other comparative brand in segment and probably the most common of the bunch. BUT in the end it's still a Toyota. I do not see them as building Brand Equity other than steamrolling the competition. As for Audi, like you said, they are 4th and happy being in 4th. To me it's VW with better suspension.

Would you be happy if BMW was 5th in its segment? At least it's more exclusive and you paid a lot more than you should for your car...

You're misunderstanding what I was saying. Mercedes and Lexus are doing the same thing BMW has been, over incentivizing. You can't do that forever, it drops resale value, which lowers residuals, which raises lease payments, and then they have to incentivize further the next go round while taking it in the shorts on lease returns, all while people complain that "BMW is so mean because they won't give me the ridiculous deal I never should've gotten in the first place." BMW needs to hit reset. Stop buying market share. Build the best and people will pay for it, and if you lose the bottom feeders along the way then so be it.

[BMWI6]

No matter how you see it, BMW is getting RAPED. I saw this coming for a long-time. It happens to every company that loses sight of it's core and what made it great. Truly sad.

[hufington]

Originally Posted by R3dliner

Higher lease prices on the 17's with no multiple security deposits and lower residuals, obviously sales will tank. I hope BMW recognizes this and go back.

While all the competitors are offering MSDs, it is a risky decision to get rid of them and the numbers show the negative effect. If BMW keeps on going like this, there will be a significant shift towards other brands. Also, they are diluting their own brand with too many models and options that share the same basic equipment and designs.

[hellrotm]

Ouch...i3 sales in the US are awful. The ones they actually sell are given away with huge discounts.

[dmboone25]

Carmeggedon is starting....

[ah3nyc]

Two of three f my BMW's are due with leases ending early next year. You bet I am gonna look elsewhere; something that has never crossed my mind in last decade. People can say what they want, BMW lost their ways with most vehicles. My 340 is constant problems from rattles from window frame, which bmw couldn't fix. Had to do it myself to the rubber from my window frame coming off on a hot day, to now my brakes on the car seeming to have issues and the transmission has violent downshift. I'm thinking air in brake line or brake vacuum pump. The build quality has declined drastically since my first e46 back in 2004. 12+ cars since and I have noticed drastic decline in quality from the cars, bmw corporate and dealers.

[Matski]

I know endless whining about everything BMW does is what Bimmerpost is known for, but I'm really quite surprised that people have taken to whining about them because they're not cheap enough...

... I wonder if these are the same people that whine about BMW whoring the badge out too much, and how they've lost their exclusivity.

[cc3]

Buyers like me just fed up with bland styling. Competition has upped its game. New X3 looks just like the old one so why bother changing.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by cc3

Buyers like me just fed up with bland styling. Competition has upped its game. New X3 looks just like the old one so why bother changing.

I don't believe this one bit. People were complaining about bland styling in the late 1990's and then complaining about the radical styling during the mid-late 2000's, now people are complaining about bland styling again.

When I've learned from this is that BMW owners like to whine a lot.

[cc3]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

I don't believe this one bit. People were complaining about bland styling in the late 1990's and then complaining about the radical styling during the mid-late 2000's, now people are complaining about bland styling again.

When I've learned from this is that BMW owners like to whine a lot.

Yep and start spending money with other brands

[conradb]

BMW has been dead for a while. All my friends and family that have bought BMWs in the past are no longer interested. They either went Mercedes or American. I went all American, couldn't be happier - Corvette and Expedition.

[mundo74]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Ouch...i3 sales in the US are awful. The ones they actually sell are given away with huge discounts.

it's no mystery as to the cause. the car is just fugly. do you think tesla would have 500k pre orders if the model 3 looked like the i3.

[vanosracing]

I am a proud owner of a 5 Series wagon and I am holding onto it because their new design is boring. No longer loyal to BMW unless they come out with something more aggressive and true to their roots.

[ted99]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Ouch...i3 sales in the US are awful. The ones they actually sell are given away with huge discounts.

I just traded my i3 for a 330i. Since I only use it inside the beltway and charge every day, it's effectively an all-electric car for me. I couln't stand to hear my wife's constant complaints about the i3's bouncing over potholes and bumps. The Model 3 will kill the i3, unless there is a >$10K price drop, to say nothing about the new Nissan Leaf. Great tech like CF shell and all-plastic body will only carry you so far in a non-enthusiast market.

[mookie45]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

You're misunderstanding what I was saying. Mercedes and Lexus are doing the same thing BMW has been, over incentivizing. You can't do that forever, it drops resale value, which lowers residuals, which raises lease payments, and then they have to incentivize further the next go round while taking it in the shorts on lease returns, all while people complain that "BMW is so mean because they won't give me the ridiculous deal I never should've gotten in the first place." BMW needs to hit reset. Stop buying market share. Build the best and people will pay for it, and if you lose the bottom feeders along the way then so be it.

So BMW should pull out, reduce market share, and squeeze as much premium out of their customer's? Won't this be more detrimental for the company overall? Reduce production, lay off factory workers, reduce dealers, lay off salesmen and service technicians, restructure corporate. BMW just shot themselves in the foot building their largest factory ever in the U.S. Was that their intention? Also, with the new 7 series, 5 series, X3 and overall lackluster design, BMW is not off to a good start to building their brand equity when the competition already has them beat (subjective).

Audi can create that exclusive sales model b/c they have a larger core brand called VW that makes up the majority of their sales. I already see it coming Mercedes, Jag, Maserati, and Porsche adding more incentives to gain market share. Those bottom feeders you keep talking about will be a lot larger than you think.