11-15-2015, 06:13 PM | #1 |
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F20 M135i CrankShaft Stuck and Can't Start
Hi all,
I'll try to make the story short. Basically I ditched work and went up to a nearby mountain hoping to photograph some scenery. The mountain is 800 m tall, so it doesn't take very long to get up there. All the twisty bits like those in Tour de Corse mean not driving very fast, the trip is definitely under one hour. On the top of the mountain, there was no one so I did a donut (a poor one). The car died after ONE donut, and it refuse to start again. I could hear it's trying to send electricity to the starter motor. Our BMW here can only say the crank shaft is stuck. They further commented they have never seen this happening. Some commented I don't know how to drive a manual and the stuck shaft is due to my over revving the engine (this implies I don't know what I am doing for more than 20 years, which hurts some feelings .) BMW went on and comment that because I always brought in my own oil, so that could be the cause. This puts me in a strange spot because I change my oil every 5000 km with Mobil LL01 compliant oil (says on the side of the bottle) I drove much crazier in my Civic and my dad's E30 325i and nothing happens, and this F20 should be more technically advanced. My car is entirely stock, and it hasn't been modified in any way. I am just wondering 1) Do you think think BMW should cover any malfunction since I am still in warranty. 2)I shifted the whole way before 4 or 5000, could doing the donut over rev the engine and screw things up? On a side note, last time they fixed something they forgot to put the tow hook in, yet another rod I have to pull outta my a**. Thanks and the picture is my car stranded. |
11-15-2015, 09:07 PM | #2 |
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So, where is the car now? With the BMW tech, or still at the top of the mountain? Are there any warning lights showing on the dash? Have you checked the battery? Have you tried a push or coast start (not recommended of the engine has actually seized -- see below, but sometimes, rough treatment can lead to a battery collapsing (best case scenario ?)
In describing the crankshaft as "stuck", are they saying the engine has seized? That is, a bearing has overheated and welded to the conrod, is moving within the block, or a piston has welded to the cylinder (the term covers many similar situations) If so, I'd expect to see an oil leak somewhere, and the strong smell of burnt oil when opening the oil filler cap. I'd also expect a Christmas tree of lights on the dash, plus codes on the iDrive "vehicle status" screen. I would think the BMW ECU includes an over rev protection mechanism, so I find it odd the tech is saying that's the cause... Let us know what is happening.
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11-15-2015, 09:14 PM | #3 |
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Indeed it's strange. I made sure there are no warning lights heading up the mountain, since I am heading up a mountain. There is no strange sound/smell/anything before and during my trip. I did not attempt push start.
The car is with BMW, they are saying my crankshaft would not turn at all. After it would not start, the start button still responds but there is only a humming sound. The electrical seems fine. Thanks. |
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11-15-2015, 09:46 PM | #4 |
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Well, I would maintain it is a manufacturing fault and thus subject to warranty, unless they have incontrovertible proof the engine over-revved (and if the ECU doesn't prevent this through a rev-limiter, I'd like to know why)
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11-16-2015, 12:51 AM | #5 |
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Sounds like a warranty case to me. The only way to over rev the engine is to down shift at too high speed. Doing a donut only hurts the tyres.
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11-16-2015, 10:05 AM | #6 | |||||
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I miss the same engine but mine does have the rev limiter "ready to help" on pushing up. I just test that occasionally (unintentionally, of course). There was a video posted here (in a power tuning thread?) with the rev limit being hit on every shift by declutching with the right foot down. So ovekvam is right: the only over rev they can blame you for is a careless downshift (I "tried" it once, too, but it's all right. I didn't let it go, of course.). Quote:
By the way, changing the oil (12000 km. of mostly motorway ride) two months ago I found out BMW had changed the official oil supplier from Castrol to Shell. I must say, it does look like Shell knows something about lubrication that Castrol does not: the engine revs much more eagerly (the old oil was quite liquid, I watched it pouring down on change) and they promised the oil thirst reduction too. Quote:
With a bird's nest under the hood opened (as pictured). |
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11-16-2015, 10:25 AM | #7 |
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I would be surprised if the engine management doesn't have a way to store events like significant over-revving of the engine. So as long as BMW can not find such a trace, they can not blaim the driver.
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11-16-2015, 03:00 PM | #8 |
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I agree. Most modern ECUs record this sort of data. If the dealer can't point to that evidence, then it's warranty; if there is that evidence, to me it suggests an ECU malfunction, as it should protect the engine from over revving (barring compression lockup due to a poor down change)
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11-16-2015, 10:31 PM | #9 |
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Engine Opened~
They opened the engine and invited me to take a look at it, and here are the pics.
They say they have never seen it before, the crankshaft bearings for the 1st, 3rd, and 5th bank are partially welded shut so they seem. I do get my oil from Costco, but it's Mobil and says conforms to BMW spec. LL01. I don't know if that would affect anything.... Last edited by westphone; 11-16-2015 at 10:48 PM.. |
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11-17-2015, 12:29 AM | #10 |
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Holy crap - those bearings are welded to the crank
I am guessing poor oil quality or oil starvation - probably starvation. Are you running semi slick tires? No matter I think its a warranty case. You did not use the car in an extreme or unforeseeable way. Get yourself a samples of the oil if possible! Might come handy in a legal matter.
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11-17-2015, 12:32 AM | #11 |
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Don't let anyone else than the dealer touch your oils. Its the blood of your car and so little is saved in the big picture...
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11-17-2015, 01:49 AM | #12 |
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This time it's scared me enough. I probably won't use other oil just to prevent more of this from happening. I can't have a BMW that needs catastrophic repair every three years.
My dad's E30 325i lasted 20+ years or so before it's crashed. My confidence in the lifetime of the F20 is somewhat diminished.... |
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11-17-2015, 02:31 AM | #13 |
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I know a guy who used oil approved by BMW in his BMW E39 M5. The engine failed, and he did not get it covered by warranty. For that engine, only one specific Castrol oil (TWS 10W-60) was allowed, and he had used another type. You should check if there are any such restrictions for the M135i.
I think the main reason for approved oils is the long service intervals. When you replace the oil every 5000 km, pretty much any oil should work, as it will not have time to break down before it is replaced. |
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11-17-2015, 02:39 AM | #14 |
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Very curious! As Harkes says, try to get a sample of the oil.
How often do you check the oil level? Has the engine been using any oil? Have you had any temperature lights come on? It is very unusual for this to occur without any warning signs, especially on a near new car. My only thought is that the engine was overheated after the drive up the mountain (why, I don't know -- oil surge, maybe?!), and the donut exercise just added more stress to the engine. Regardless, this is a high performance engine with a very smart ECU, including multiple sensors and probes. Warning lights would have alerted you to any error condition, and the ECU should have put the engine into limp mode to prevent this type of damage.
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11-17-2015, 05:45 AM | #15 |
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If the car over heats you will get a CEL. And if the engine oil become too hot the performance will be restricted. Furthermore a donut is not that hard on the drive train once the wheels spin; you might hit the rev limiter as the worst.
This is oil starvation I am very sure of it. |
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11-17-2015, 09:03 AM | #16 |
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For regular F20 two warnings should be expected before too late: "engine oil at minimum" and "engine oil below minimum". No doubt there must be a critical oil pressure illumination, even in M135i. That must be logged.
Actually, before disassembling the engine they should have noticed the amount and condition of the oil there as it could be obviously related to the failure. Anyway they must supply a valid (official, at least) reason for warranty rejection. |
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11-18-2015, 11:26 AM | #17 |
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is a known issue with n55 engines.. they canŽt handle lateral acceleration.. and in combination when the oil level is not at max youŽll mess up the bearing at the crankshaft...
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11-18-2015, 09:50 PM | #18 |
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Hi @DomMuc I never knew that, I remembered feeling better about driving in the mountains when it came with dry sump, but I guess that's not true.
Ok normally I keep my mouth shut about how BMW in Taiwan treats me, because I thought they do that to everyone. However I would like to ask the forum if this is acceptable BMW treatment to you. It's been one week after my car is in their shop, and they will need another week to determine if it is indeed a warranty case. They will "investigate" my computer to find out if it is a warranty case. Meanwhile they provide no alternate transportation, no driving me to the subway, the best they did is calling cabs. Since it seems like a warranty case I'll assume it is, and all the parts required are not stock in Taiwan. Not one. Therefore, for all the parts to float over from Germany and complete the work, it will take a long time. They estimated they will finish in February, of 2016. In the mean time, I will have to come up some way of driving my wife and two kids. I do not like BMW assuming their owners automatically are in possession of more than one car. I am really contemplating if my next car should be a bimmer, but they are very nice when all is well. Last edited by westphone; 11-18-2015 at 09:52 PM.. Reason: spelling |
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11-18-2015, 10:43 PM | #19 |
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I would find that lack of customer care quite unacceptable from my BMW dealer, regardless of whether it is a warranty issue, and would certainly cite the poor care as a reason I might contemplate other brands for my next car. Warranty costs are paid by the factory, not the dealer...albeit the factory pays the dealer set rates for their labour, which is lower than the dealer will charge you.
How many BMW dealerships are there in Taiwan? If only one, then it is acting as a monopoly - 'fat and happy', as we would say - with customer care a low priority, obviously.
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11-19-2015, 12:36 AM | #20 |
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There is only one. It has no English name, but they just call themselves BMW Taiwan. They are in charge of BMW, Porsche, MINI, and R&R (okay some are owned by BMW and are kinda redundant), and they had Audi briefly. They also have BMW in China.
I think they get away with poor customer services because these are really nice cars. I don't know why BMW doesn't just take it back like Merc has, but who knows.... Weekday Toyota Prius and weekend shifter go kart is beginning to seem like a better idea. |
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11-19-2015, 02:17 AM | #21 |
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Well, I bet they don't let their RR customers languish like you. RR is pretty harsh on dealers when they receive customer complaints.
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11-19-2015, 08:52 AM | #22 |
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I would never expect my dealer to give me a loaner. Its just not feasible to have a fleet of cars on standby for that. I might feel different about a warranty case than the current where I fucked up myself though.
The dealer also has to import parts for my car - should be ready on Saturday though after 3 weeks in the shop - nice
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