[eray]

Hi everyone,

I've successfully retrofitted paddle shifters to my F20 118i pre-lci.

View post on imgur.com

(please ignore the M135i welcoming logo , it was M55d before. just couldn't get it changed to MPerformance )

The wiring and coding is done, and they work like a charm.
However, I still do have the standard automatic shifter knob.

I have read on several forums that sport automatic transmission shifts "faster and more aggressive" than the standard one. So, is it possible to code 2AT (code for sports automatic) to 205 (standard auto) without changing the shifter knob?
(That shiny shifter costs €600 here which is relatively high for a plastic equipment)

Your assistance would be appreciated

[dishy]

Looks good, how does it feel compared to an original one?
What gearbox do you have? The faster and more aggressive shifts are due to the gearbox manufactured and entire responsibility by company: ZF : http://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/pr...nsmission.html

The gearbox is an improvement over the previous design. Gear shifts can be 200ms due to design I believe. If you watch the video on their site they explain how 8 gears can be selected with minimal movement.

Do you really need to change the shifter? All I do with my m135i is move to 'D' and use the padles as I please

[eray]

Hi,

I have standard Automatic 8 Speed ZF transmission (205)
As far as I know, you have Sport Automatic Transmission (2TB) on M135i.
I feel like when I use the paddles, it shifts faster but might be placebo

I have coded 2TB to my car and no change at all. Maybe the ecu overrides it and behaves like 205.

I've read on somewhere that Sport Automatic Transmission does not gear up automatically on manual mode, and does not gear down when you kickdown.
Can someone approve?

[dishy]

I didn't know there were multiple types of trans. I did look on the ZF website to understand and as far as I Can tell I have the 8HP gearbox. However, there are different variations of the 8HP box, and this is down to engine power / output. My gearbox is one of the smaller models due to the power output of the engine in the M135. My boss' Aston Martin also has the 8HP but I expect since he has a V12 he will have the relevant sized gearbox to cope with more power.

Where did you note the different gearbox types such as 205 and 2TB?

Bearing in mind the gearbox also has an ECU, I'd be careful and probably advise against coding the gearbox ECU.

I don't know what changes happen, but when I am in sports mode, gear changes are definitely faster and I'd say actually a little bit violent. If you're driving normally ie soft but while still in sports mode, and I change gear using the paddle; the change of gear is so abrupt you still get a bit of a throw into the seat where the car lunges forward. If you're in comfort mode, the gear changes still sound quick but the whole process is smooth like a nice regular car.

Regarding your last comment, if you do move the lever into manual mode, and do not change gear manually at redline, the car changes up gear for you once you hit the rev limiter. The car does not kickdown when in manual mode, though. I much prefer this, especially since max torque begins at 1500rpm.

I'm wondering if the gearbox differences you mention is just simply the gearbox ECU programming that controls it. If you look on the ZF website, there's just the 8HP. The 9 speed is coming out soon :S

[eray]

Thank you very much for your reply.

I've found out that there are two different variations of ZF 8HP while browsing ebay for an m performance gear selector.

When I was trying to code paddle shifters to my car, I was told to code 2TB instead of 205 to make paddles work. However, the shifter still behaves like 205. I mean it's nothing like sport transmission (2TB)
I will give it a try with a sport automatic gear selector replacement, and then post the result here

Btw I gave a call to BMW reseller. They told me that sport transmission option is only available for engines higher than 2000cc

[dishy]

I did a quick google search and I don't know what to type in, to find out the differences on the gearbox in your 118 and the gearbox in my m135i. I don't even know if I have the 8HP45 or larger. However, the 8HP45 is the smallest one. The "45" in the 8HP45 relates to the engine torque in NM (450Nm) as the maximum. My engine output is 450Nm and so I would expect I would have a model up as so the gearbox was not running on the limit

I looked at the gear ratios some time ago between the 8HP's and even the ratios are the same across the different variations.
I'd expect you to have the 8HP45 as there isn't a smaller one, and as long as you're sure it's 8 speed and is definitely made by ZF. If the M135i has the same 8HP45 (I think it does, as this isn't 1960, manufactures make things as cheaply as possible), then the only difference I could think then would be the ECU programming to control it. I've really no idea how to confirm or check, though.

I'm wondering if the 205 and 2TB numbers are BMW part / ref. numbers?

Here's a link to the ZF 8HP website:
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/pr....shtml#tabs1-1


What do you mean about the shifter, you say it still behaves like a 205? Here's how mine works: the shifter is always in one place, even in park. "P" is selected by pressing the P button. If I listen carefully I can hear a motor move somewhere below the shifter. To get into D, I press the unlock button on the side of the shifter and pull the shift lever downwards. D is selected, but the shift lever returns to the centre position again. To get to Reverse, I press unlock and then press up, opposite way from D. Again the shifter returns to the centre position it's always in.
I can push the shifter over to the left and then it is in a manual mode. Only done this once, I don't like it. Back is upshift, forward is downshift. In manual mode, kickdown is disabled. I can be 1500RPM and put the pedal all the way to the floor hard, and press the kickdown button under the pedal. The gearbox does not shift (I like this, I can use the torque produced!). If I slow down and forget to downshift, the gearbox does downshift for me at about 1100rpm or thereabouts.

If you want to show me, I'm in Australia. I can see you're in Turkey. It's a bit of a long drive but come over after work one eve o_0

[ovekvam]

If you look in the BMW parts list, the GA8HP45Z is listed even for the small engines, and all the way up to the M135i.

[eray]

hi again,

I would love to pay there a visit

The transmissions are mechanically exactly the same, however they use different software and different controller module I suppose.
Mine also does not gear down when you kickdown in sport mode, however unlike yours if I press the button under the gas pedal it automatically shifts down. Moreover, it also automatically gears up when the rev reaches 7K even in sport+ and manual mode. That's what I mean by saying "behaves like 205" (it is the code for the standart automatic ZF transmission)

I heard that if I replace the gear selector with a Sport Automatic one (it has different controller module) , I will have the all benefits of sport transmission but not sure if it's worth 600€

here is the comparison of gear selectors:
the one on the left is standart, right one is sport gear selector

[bmw-performance]

The 116i or 118i where not available with sport automatic gearbox and still aren't. I'd to have the software upgrade and paddles as well. No tuner/engineering company offers this tuning upgrade yet.

If the option was not available from factory, how should the engine management knows he has to work with a faster gearbox setup? Maybe a stupid question, but I think they talk constantly with each other.

By tuning the engine you feel less need to upgrade the software of the gearbox. In my option it would be great if its was available, but i feel more need for smoother gear changes at low speed beneath 4000 rpm, like the bigger engines do.

[dishy]

Originally Posted by eray

hi again,

I would love to pay there a visit

The transmissions are mechanically exactly the same, however they use different software and different controller module I suppose.

This is the gearbox ECU, though right?

Originally Posted by eray

Mine also does not gear down when you kickdown in sport mode,

I believe mine DOES kickdown when I'm in sports mode. It only does not kickdown when gear selector is in the manual position

Originally Posted by eray

however unlike yours if I press the button under the gas pedal it automatically shifts down.

This is kickdown, though isn't it?

Originally Posted by eray

Moreover, it also automatically gears up when the rev reaches 7K even in sport+ and manual mode.

That's what I mean by saying "behaves like 205" (it is the code for the standart automatic ZF transmission)

Mine does this too I think it's a good safety feature. I read a review of a Lamborghini that had exactly this kind of function when switching in to one of the equivalent sport modes. It hits the limiter for a split second then shifts up. Anyway, not really relevant just thought I'd mention it

Before spending 600 euro I'd really look into it more because I fear you will not get any benefit or advantage at all. I'd be looking to find where the gearbox ECU is in the car first (if it's part of the gear lever then replacing the gear lever could be the way forward but I don't see this as possible.)

Ovekam - thanks for the info! So it would seem the M135i which I have AND the gearbox you have eray are exactly the same. So, if there is any difference in the way yours behaves then it must all be completely electronic.

[ovekvam]

If you select manual mode, I think the gearbox should not shift up at the limiter. If it does, it is not acting manually. There are reasons for not shifting in that situation, like when you are drifting, and want to limit the amount of wheelspin, or when you know there is only 2 seconds until you will be braking for the next corner.

[eray]

hi,

Then I guess the differences between Sports Automatic Transmission and Standard Auto are the shift paddles, higher quality sporty looking gear selector, more aggressive gear changes in sport mode. Other than those, their behaviors are similar, and since your car has much more powerful engine you might have the 2nd generation ZF which has max torque value of 500 N-m.

I still find it strange that it shifts up at the rev limiter automatically which makes you lose time in sharp turns or drifting if you like to go on track.

And I still regret not getting manual transmission after driving manuals for more than 10 years

Originally Posted by dishy

I'd be looking to find where the gearbox ECU is in the car first (if it's part of the gear lever then replacing the gear lever could be the way forward but I don't see this as possible.)

by the way, it is located under the lever. inside that plastic cover box

[dishy]

I can't remember exactly what mode the car was in, may have been comfort and manual but I'm sure it shifted up when I hit the limiter. TBH I don't really want to go out and check what happens when I hit the limiter in manual.
Manuals are crap. I've had manuals since I was 16. Admittedly, auto boxes are usually not meant for racing, however you can get race auto boxes. Autos are even better if you have forced induction because you can load up the engine whilst stationary through the torque converter and this will build up some forced induction pressure (launch control). The result is a better launch off the line ie for drag racing. Not only that but lightening fast gear changes. Also no risk of missing a gear or burning off your clutch in traffic. Plus, some people are really terrible drivers with manuals and ride the clutch! I let a female friend drive my previous car which was a Supra. I winced as she pulled off up a hill and slipped the clutch way too much. After a few seconds I couldn't resist but say "YOU'RE GOING TO BURN MY CLUTCH!". I'm pretty sure at that point she thought I was just having a go at her, but second or two later you could smell it.. Clutches are an expensive job, as are gearbox repairs and other things which could wear or break as a result of poor piloting skills. The ZF gearbox is made to be sporty. I'd much prefer to have this box compared to a manual. I think the biggest selling point for me for my car is the gearbox. I would not have bought this car if it were manual.

The 500Nm ZF box i think is the Diesel variant and that's due to a different torque converter.

ps Is that why the lever is 600 euro's then?

[No one]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

I think the gearbox should not shift up at the limiter.

Do you think choking the engine with the limiter is better? They just let you keep pushing as you seem to intend.

Originally Posted by ovekvam

If it does, it is not acting manually.

That must be why they call the gearbox automatic. The "manual" mode is a wording game for those who don't tell the difference: it's a semi-automatic mode in fact, isn't it?

Originally Posted by ovekvam

There are reasons for not shifting in that situation, like when you are drifting, and want to limit the amount of wheelspin, or when you know there is only 2 seconds until you will be braking for the next corner.

Then you should keep the revs right below the limiter, probably. Or let them introduce a "rev cruise control" for lazy drifters.
(By the way, they say automatic boxes can't really stand much wheelspin for whatever reason. You should not drift if you want it to last. Or is that just wrong?)

Originally Posted by dishy

Manuals are crap.

Not really. They are the only driver's proper choice. That's "engraved in stone by God Himself". If you prefer automatic stuff you're not a driver, you're a consumer (no offence).

Originally Posted by dishy

I've had manuals since I was 16.

I've had manual since I was... 9? On a sport bicycle. "Should've started earlier."

Originally Posted by dishy

The result is a better launch off the line

Well, honestly, once I've launched I feel a bit stupid looking in the mirror at those who were beside sitting on their butts just where I left them. I recall struggling to keep the leftmost lane pace in my first 1.1 60 hp. I guess I just should not look.

Originally Posted by dishy

lightening fast gear changes

I don't really care how fast the box is. I do care how fast I am. It's annoying my manual takes time (to synchronize?) - at fist I could feel it counting some "steps" (of the long way ) - but it appears to improve!

Originally Posted by dishy

no risk of missing a gear

"No risk, no reward."

Originally Posted by dishy

some people are really terrible drivers with manuals and ride the clutch

"Amen to that."

Originally Posted by dishy

I let a female friend drive my previous car

That was a terrible mistake, of course. You should have a male friend for the purpose or just do it yourself.

Originally Posted by dishy

which was a Supra

A Toyota is only good for that, IMHO.

Originally Posted by dishy

Clutches are an expensive job, as are gearbox repairs and other things which could wear or break as a result of poor piloting skills.

This could be another reason to improve.

Originally Posted by dishy

Is that why the lever is 600 euro's then?

Originally Posted by eray

higher quality sporty looking gear selector

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by No one

Do you think choking the engine with the limiter is better? They just let you keep pushing as you seem to intend.

Yes, it should be up to the driver to decide. The limiter is there to keep the engine safe, so bumping into it is not really a problem.

Originally Posted by No one

Then you should keep the revs right below the limiter, probably. Or let them introduce a "rev cruise control" for lazy drifters.
(By the way, they say automatic boxes can't really stand much wheelspin for whatever reason. You should not drift if you want it to last. Or is that just wrong?)

I don't think wheelspin is a bigger problem for an automatic driveline than a manual one. Of course drifting will put more strain on most of your car than a regular Sunday drive. I prefer to do my drifting in winter conditions, when the forces involved are not so harmful.

If I select manual mode, I don't want the gearbox to shift by itself. I am however okay with the concept of being denied to shift to protect the engine, like if I want to shift down to first gear at 150 km/h.

If I want the gearbox to shift by itself, I will select automatic mode.

As long as automatic gearboxes can't do this, I will stay with manual transmissions. I will probably do that anyway, since I like the clutch pedal.

[No one]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

I don't think wheelspin is a bigger problem for an automatic driveline than a manual one.

Nor do I. It just seems a common assumption. I guess I even saw some reasoning in an article but fortunately I don't really care as I'm not interested in either drifting or automatic.

Originally Posted by ovekvam

I am however okay with the concept of being denied to shift to protect the engine, like if I want to shift down to first gear at 150 km/h.

I wouldn't really want that but I've had some experience: once I misshifted from the 6th to the 2nd (instead of intended 4th!) at 130 km/h (on a motorway ). It was a shocking moment . I didn't notice how far exactly the tachometer arm went before I realized what was happening and recovered (before unclutching completely?) but fortunately it's all right. I've practised and take more care since.

Originally Posted by ovekvam

I like the clutch pedal.

Well, I guess I'd like it to take shorter travel. I even have to sit one click further (than I'd find comfortable otherwise) from the controls because of it.

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by No one

Well, I guess I'd like it to take shorter travel. I even have to sit one click further (than I'd find comfortable otherwise) from the controls because of it.

Maybe you can do something about that? I remember in my E30s that there was a threaded hole behind the pedal, where you can install an adjustable pedal stop. I installed a bolt with some rubber bushing on the head and a lock nut to keep it at a fixed distance from the floor. I think the pedal travel was about half after my fix, and the clutch was still completely decoupled with the pedal pushed in.

[No one]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

Maybe you can do something about that? I remember in my E30s that there was a threaded hole behind the pedal, where you can install an adjustable pedal stop. I installed a bolt with some rubber bushing on the head and a lock nut to keep it at a fixed distance from the floor. I think the pedal travel was about half after my fix, and the clutch was still completely decoupled with the pedal pushed in.

I have to sit further to control it popping up rather than to push it down: I prefer to control it's oncoming rather than upward, from below my foot already, movement at the last stage back up (and it does not feel void at that stage to just let it go). By the way it snaps quite deep too, so the whole path feels pretty meaningful .

Yet, thanks for the tip: I'm rather for accommodating to what it is than interfering to adjust it to my preference, so I didn't even think of such approach. It's not really much burden in fact: I appreciate BMW ergonomics (it's another key factor for me as I have some posture trouble). I'll keep it in mind just in case.

[dishy]

Originally Posted by No one

Well, I guess I'd like it to take shorter travel. I even have to sit one click further (than I'd find comfortable otherwise) from the controls because of it.

This is why auto's are way better than manuals Not only do you get a comfortable ride, you always have one hand free through not needing to change gear, to check facebook.
As a bonus, my car comes with a ZF gearbox that is semi auto. If you had a manual M135i and I have my auto M135i, not only would I win in a drag race, but I could do so comfortably whilst ordering Domino's for the finish line.

[No one]

Originally Posted by dishy

This is why auto's are way better than manuals

"Nothing to do all day but stay in bed"

Originally Posted by dishy

you always have one hand free through not needing to change gear, to check facebook.

And a foot, too. I don't practise things you might be using it for so it's all right for me to change gears. Otherwise it's just dull. By the way, it's a good safety measure to keep both hands on the wheel unless your facebook needs checking really badly.

Originally Posted by dishy

If you had a manual M135i and I have my auto M135i, not only would I win in a drag race

Why would I need a M135i for that? My point is I like driving rather than just riding. I'm not a racer.

Originally Posted by dishy

ordering Domino's for the finish line.

Can't you order it for the start line (does it really take a race)?

[dizx]

I also tried to change the FA (VO) from 205 to 2TB, but nothing changed. Can't feel any difference, and no S-mode when i change the lever from right to left.

Some places suggest that the firmware needs to be updated first, but I haven't dared to flash any new updates myself.

[lefthander]

Originally Posted by dizx

I also tried to change the FA (VO) from 205 to 2TB, but nothing changed. Can't feel any difference, and no S-mode when i change the lever from right to left.

Some places suggest that the firmware needs to be updated first, but I haven't dared to flash any new updates myself.

Before you change to 2TB, you need to change I step to July 13, change vo to 2tb then code the 3 main files. I did it years ago so can't remember which files. Change the I step part first