[westphone]

Scary title for some isn't it. It is definitely the case for us in Asia. They have stopped importing manual M135i in Taiwan, and there is nothing fully manual in the entire BMW lineup for us. You can get it through individual case with criminal down payment requests for the M3. There is definitely no plan to bring in any manual anymore starting from now for us. Indeed, even almost like 95% of drivers opt for DCT here (I wonder why, not their only car anyways).

In Taiwan if you pick a manual transmission you're consider a car connoisseur/hardcore racer/strange all in one go and sometimes frowned upon. I am wondering is this becoming a widespread phenomenon even in other parts of the world? Manual is not even going to be an option some time in the future, and the people that want it dwindle in number anyways?

[ttimbo]

Because of the increasingly harsh Euro emissions and fuel economy regs, I suspect it will be very rare to see a manual Euro car, or car made for the Euro market, within the next couple of years

[papertiger]

As good as the new auto gearboxes are, I can see the reason for it. In the hunt of lower emissions, a good auto gearbox can be of help rather than increasing the consumption. Especially in Porsches this is clear, when you, here in Norway, now pay less money for a Porsche with their PDK gearbox than with MT. -Simply because of the emissions.

The last news on this front: the new Porsche 991 Turbo/Turbo S is only available with PDK. Worldwide (at least for now, before the enthusiasts start complaining). Wonder why...?

[ZenithDK]

I thought the lower emissions from auto boxes were just paper figures, due to the gearboxes being configured for optimum performance exactly within the parameters of the euro norm test?

Has anyone tested similar cars with manual/auto in regular driving conditions and found a noticable difference?

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by ZenithDK

I thought the lower emissions from auto boxes were just paper figures, due to the gearboxes being configured for optimum performance exactly within the parameters of the euro norm test?

Has anyone tested similar cars with manual/auto in regular driving conditions and found a noticable difference?

They do have 2 more gears, which should in theory give them a consumption advantage, unless the transmission has a higher power loss.

I am traditionally biased strongly against automatic gearboxes, and have often refused to drive cars unless they have a "real" gearbox. The new ZF transmission in the F20 has dented my opinion about auto boxes significantly. Seems like they have sorted out most issues I hate them for, and I suspect I could actually live with one.

Automatic gearboxes used to be number one on my hate list, in front of issues like front wheel drive, diesel engines, open differentials and convertibles.

[mowflow]

I could and have lived with an auto (dual clutch job). i;d still rather have the choice though.

When I checked the howmanyleft website which shows the number of f20s registered per quarter in the UK I was stunned to see that manual M135i's were vastly in the minority but in contrast the majority of 125d's registered were manuals. You would think the car classed as the "driver's car" would get more manual orders and the motorway mile munching dervs would nearly all be auto.

In saying that i could live with and auto, when I had my DSG equipped car I found it quite novel at first but after a while it felt like a large part of the driving experience had been removed. There is practically no skill to shifting in these things and to me the cliche of feeling like a playstation really did ring true. there is little mechanical connection to the car and with the numb steering that most cars have now it's just not a trend I like.

As for better emissions. It's a con. Day to day manual or auto driven in the same manner will be almost identical. It's just a way round the stupid, poorly conceived euro tests/ratings and we are suffering as drivers if it ends up you can't get a manual.

[creepy coupe]

It wouldn't bother me TBH I've never found a large engined car that suits a manual gearbox properly.But agree, it should still be a choice.

[ttimbo]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

Automatic gearboxes used to be number one on my hate list, in front of issues like front wheel drive, diesel engines, open differentials and convertibles.

you're on a slippery slope, now I reckon. In a few years, I can see you in a Golf GTD convertible...with DSG!

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by ttimbo

you're on a slippery slope, now I reckon. In a few years, I can see you in a Golf GTD convertible...with DSG!

I know. I have already given up naturally aspirated engines and limited slip differentials. I wonder what BMW will take away from me next time. I fear that it could be my beloved clutch pedal.

[mowflow]

If my dealer is to be believed in a few years time we will all just be passengers in self driven cars. The thought gives me the fear

[DriverZ]

There is no romance indeed...but modern autos are so efficient that makes you wonder "why even bother with a manual stick"...???

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by DriverZ

There is no romance indeed...but modern autos are so efficient that makes you wonder "why even bother with a manual stick"...???

Why not ?
I like it, even if me and my manual are slower than you and your automatic.

When I get 40, I'll get an automatic.

[DriverZ]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

Why not ?
I like it, even if me and my manual are slower than you and your automatic.

When I get 40, I'll get an automatic.

Its not about being slow or not (some times ) its about practicality...

I used to be a huge fan of MT driving until I tried a DCT M3 & a DKG 335i.
It changed my world.

Even when I tried the auto 116i , the gearbox felt fantastic.
Give it a try...

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by DriverZ

Its not about being slow or not (some times ) its about practicality...

I used to be a huge fan of MT driving until I tried a DCT M3 & a DKG 335i.
It changed my world.

Even when I tried the auto 116i , the gearbox felt fantastic.
Give it a try...

I tried it.
Did twice a 1h30 test drive with the M135i AT. It's very practical, and I'd love to have one for daily commuting.
But I'm not buying my M135i for practicality, so I'm sticking to a manual for now...

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

Why not ?
I like it, even if me and my manual are slower than you and your automatic.

When I get 40, I'll get an automatic.

With respect, you're suffering from belief in the fallacy that everything changes when you get older and you somehow magically get a 'pipe and slippers' attitude towards life.

Well I can tell you that at 60, motorcycles and fast M-cars are just as appealing and Mercedes automatics, just as boring. You're either a 'pipe and slippers' guy, or you're not.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by hwelvaar

I tried it.
Did twice a 1h30 test drive with the M135i AT. It's very practical, and I'd love to have one for daily commuting.
But I'm not buying my M135i for practicality, so I'm sticking to a manual for now...

Imagine you'd driven an AT all your life, then for 1.5 hours get into a 'stick shift' to see what the fuss is all about. You'd very likely fluff the take-off...both clutch and throttle regulation; mis-time your shifts and end up taking many corners in neutral while you 'stir the pot' looking for a gear.

Now clearly, for a beginner, an AT is nothing like as challenging to drive as an MT, and the pre-ZF ATs were not rewarding in manual mode, but the latest ZF and DCTs are different kettles of fish entirely. Super-fast, with no sense of torque convertor 'slush' these boxes do not take the edge off an otherwise sporty drive like most current ATs. But they do require a very different driving rhythm compared to an MT and its not something you acquire in 1.5 hours. I've driven around 1200 miles and I'm only just starting to 'get it'.

The other thing I'm finding is that its not helpful to drive the ZF in Auto, then flick to manual for a occasional sporty drive. I believe it takes a lot of practice to drive a ZF or DCT optimally, before the timing of up and down shift becomes 2nd nature. I can still drive a stick way more smoothly on a twisting winding B road, but I'm getting there with the ZF. It does however require a lot of driver involvement to readjust completely the driving style and learn the new shift points.

IMO, the biggest difference between an MT and AT is that the MT mandates some skill in manipulating gears, whereas the AT has a 'lazy' mode that allows unskilled or disinterested drivers to avoid any thought or involvement in gear shifting. Most ATs don't reward manual shifting, but DCTs and the new ZF can, if the driver puts in the effort to learn how to use one most effectively.

Driving a DCT or ZF after an MT is like learning a new language....total immersion gets the best results, but most just end up switching back to English and miss most of the pleasure of learning to communicate in a different language.

[ttimbo]

Personally, I lament the advent of synchromesh....

[ovekvam]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Imagine you'd driven an AT all your life, then for 1.5 hours get into a 'stick shift' to see what the fuss is all about. You'd very likely fluff the take-off...both clutch and throttle regulation; mis-time your shifts and end up taking many corners in neutral while you 'stir the pot' looking for a gear.

It took me around 10 years to master the manual gearbox.

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Now clearly, for a beginner, an AT is nothing like as challenging to drive as an MT, and the pre-ZF ATs were not rewarding in manual mode, but the latest ZF and DCTs are different kettles of fish entirely. Super-fast, with no sense of torque convertor 'slush' these boxes do not take the edge off an otherwise sporty drive like most current ATs. But they do require a very different driving rhythm compared to an MT and its not something you acquire in 1.5 hours. I've driven around 1200 miles and I'm only just starting to 'get it'.

The other thing I'm finding is that its not helpful to drive the ZF in Auto, then flick to manual for a occasional sporty drive. I believe it takes a lot of practice to drive a ZF or DCT optimally, before the timing of up and down shift becomes 2nd nature. I can still drive a stick way more smoothly on a twisting winding B road, but I'm getting there with the ZF. It does however require a lot of driver involvement to readjust completely the driving style and learn the new shift points.

IMO, the biggest difference between an MT and AT is that the MT mandates some skill in manipulating gears, whereas the AT has a 'lazy' mode that allows unskilled or disinterested drivers to avoid any thought or involvement in gear shifting. Most ATs don't reward manual shifting, but DCTs and the new ZF can, if the driver puts in the effort to learn how to use one most effectively.

Most people never learned how to really DRIVE a sportscar with manual in the first place.
If you aren't able to heel-and-toe and experience the rewarding feeling once you get it right, you cannot compare the involvement of driving MT vs AT. All you "AT'ers" have to do is flick a switch. The same involvement for hand-eye-mind-feet coordination for advanced MT driving can never be obtained with AT.
If you find it thrilling to learn when to flick the switch with your finger, then try to learn how and when to operate three pedals with two feet at the same time, oh yeah and the stick at the same time as well.

I'm not debating if either MT or AT is the better overal choice. But I don't agree when people try to sell AT as being as involving and difficult to learn to get it right as with MT.

My next car might well be an AT, and years from now I'll tell my son (now 12 months) that cars used to have three pedals, and I'm sure he's going to ask "how the hell did you operate that?" and I'll explain it and tell about heel-and-toe and I'm sure he will regard that as stone-age technology and mindset. But for the next few years I will enjoy my MT, and then I'll join the rest of you lot

[Racing Teatray]

It just depends on the car and what you want it for. I can't quite fathom wanting an automatic Porsche Cayman for example. Likewise, I don't quite see the rationale of owning a hot hatch with an auto 'box unless you have to share it with a spouse who will only drive automatics. But if I was ordering a family estate car, SUV or luxury car, I'd get an automatic without a doubt.

I laud BMW for offering the 335i MSport Touring (which would make an excellent next car should the need arise) as a manual, but would get the automatic given the car's remit.

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by Woland's Advocate

It just depends on the car and what you want it for. I can't quite fathom wanting an automatic Porsche Cayman for example. Likewise, .

Really? I owned a Cayman S Gen2 and one of the main reasons I only kept it a month was the poor feel to the clutch take up feel.

[mowflow]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Imagine you'd driven an AT all your life, then for 1.5 hours get into a 'stick shift' to see what the fuss is all about. You'd very likely fluff the take-off...both clutch and throttle regulation; mis-time your shifts and end up taking many corners in neutral while you 'stir the pot' looking for a gear.

Now clearly, for a beginner, an AT is nothing like as challenging to drive as an MT, and the pre-ZF ATs were not rewarding in manual mode, but the latest ZF and DCTs are different kettles of fish entirely. Super-fast, with no sense of torque convertor 'slush' these boxes do not take the edge off an otherwise sporty drive like most current ATs. But they do require a very different driving rhythm compared to an MT and its not something you acquire in 1.5 hours. I've driven around 1200 miles and I'm only just starting to 'get it'.

The other thing I'm finding is that its not helpful to drive the ZF in Auto, then flick to manual for a occasional sporty drive. I believe it takes a lot of practice to drive a ZF or DCT optimally, before the timing of up and down shift becomes 2nd nature. I can still drive a stick way more smoothly on a twisting winding B road, but I'm getting there with the ZF. It does however require a lot of driver involvement to readjust completely the driving style and learn the new shift points.

IMO, the biggest difference between an MT and AT is that the MT mandates some skill in manipulating gears, whereas the AT has a 'lazy' mode that allows unskilled or disinterested drivers to avoid any thought or involvement in gear shifting. Most ATs don't reward manual shifting, but DCTs and the new ZF can, if the driver puts in the effort to learn how to use one most effectively.

Driving a DCT or ZF after an MT is like learning a new language....total immersion gets the best results, but most just end up switching back to English and miss most of the pleasure of learning to communicate in a different language.

I get where you are coming from here. I did have to learn how to drive my A3 with the DSG box. However, once learned I realised how one dimensional it was. It could still be fun but the replacement of perfectly timing and throwing a stick into the correct slot while working the pedals with the pushing of a paddle with one finger just subtracted a little too much from driving for me. I did bless the thing every time i was stuck in traffic though and i have to say those moments are far more frequent than the fun drives these days.