BMW 1-Series Forum (F20) 135i - 1Addicts.com > Second Generation 1 Series Forum > 2012 BMW 1-Series Sporthatch (F20) Discussion > A45 AMG Test drive and compared to my M135i
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      07-12-2013, 01:29 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
But why would you be in a gear that puts the RPM under 1300 RPM or so? With normal driving, there would be no reason to downshift.
For an M135i to pull the same way as a 330d you need more than cruising revs.....if you'd driven a 330d you'd know what I mean. The M135i is better than a 335i in the original post we're discussing but the point is still similar.
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      07-12-2013, 03:24 AM   #46
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I think the point ovekam is making is how you drive a manual transmission car that has an engine that produces high torque from low revs; and yes, the question was why, when driving a manual, you would be in a gear that dropped the engine revs below the minimum, ie, 1300rpm, at which this torque is produced. The AT doesn't do this, so provided you are thinking about it, neither will a good manual driver. A good manual driver will ride the torque plateau, exactly like the AT, but maybe the shifts aren't as fast...and will be fewer!
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      07-12-2013, 10:36 AM   #47
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Thanks for all the positive comments on the review guys

Seem's Evo comparison comes to the same conclusion http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=864008
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      07-12-2013, 07:02 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMP View Post
Thanks for all the positive comments on the review guys

Seem's Evo comparison comes to the same conclusion http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=864008
I wonder if they took dollars (pounds) out of the equation would they give the same result?

Down under the price gap is nowhere near 23% odd more money for the Merc, more like 10%.
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      07-16-2013, 05:41 AM   #49
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Nice read, I also prefer the BMW over the Merc.

After owning a few BMW's I guess you start getting use to their design and build quality. I regularly test drive other makes and always feel much more comfortable and more at home in a BMW....
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      07-16-2013, 06:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
How can you see the lag from the dyno charts? On the charts I have seen, there is no time scale.
I'am with you... I guess a lot of members are confusing lag with a later torque peak. The lag is the settling time between input and output. Input is planting your right foot and output is max. attainable torque at that rpm. I didn't ever see a dyno chart plotting input versus output and revealing settling time. The fact the AMG is getting his torque max a few hundred rpms later has nothing to do with lag.
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      07-16-2013, 06:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttimbo View Post
I think the point ovekam is making is how you drive a manual transmission car that has an engine that produces high torque from low revs; and yes, the question was why, when driving a manual, you would be in a gear that dropped the engine revs below the minimum, ie, 1300rpm, at which this torque is produced. The AT doesn't do this, so provided you are thinking about it, neither will a good manual driver. A good manual driver will ride the torque plateau, exactly like the AT, but maybe the shifts aren't as fast...and will be fewer!
You state the AT is never dropping rpm below torque peak? Hmmm??? I guess your AT needs some servicing then.

The 330d has a beefy 560Nm, the M135i has a respectable 450Nm. The 330d just delivers ~24% more grunt at low rpms, and seen it hits in a few rpms lower, it will provide you with at least this surplus every single time you push the accelerator. It's as simple as that.

Where the M135i reigns is in the higher rpms of course, and not with a small margin. But really, could you count the seconds/year that you actually call more than 255hp driving your car? I guess those seconds tick away with a big smile on your face... but they are mighty expensive too.
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      07-16-2013, 09:29 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
You state the AT is never dropping rpm below torque peak? Hmmm??? I guess your AT needs some servicing then.

The 330d has a beefy 560Nm, the M135i has a respectable 450Nm. The 330d just delivers ~24% more grunt at low rpms, and seen it hits in a few rpms lower, it will provide you with at least this surplus every single time you push the accelerator. It's as simple as that.

Where the M135i reigns is in the higher rpms of course, and not with a small margin. But really, could you count the seconds/year that you actually call more than 255hp driving your car? I guess those seconds tick away with a big smile on your face... but they are mighty expensive too.
You are, of course, correct: naturally RPM on the auto will drop below peak torque on a trailing throttle. But that wasn't the context of the discussion.
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      07-17-2013, 06:33 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
You state the AT is never dropping rpm below torque peak? Hmmm??? I guess your AT needs some servicing then.

The 330d has a beefy 560Nm, the M135i has a respectable 450Nm. The 330d just delivers ~24% more grunt at low rpms, and seen it hits in a few rpms lower, it will provide you with at least this surplus every single time you push the accelerator. It's as simple as that.

Where the M135i reigns is in the higher rpms of course, and not with a small margin. But really, could you count the seconds/year that you actually call more than 255hp driving your car? I guess those seconds tick away with a big smile on your face... but they are mighty expensive too.
I do 200+ everyday and not on highways since they are too crowded I just love to rev it till 6.5k rpm. And the sound of the engine is just awesome. I have had a 325d chipped E92 before and while the torque is nice, i prefer the screaming higher revving petrol engine anytime. And if wanted you can chip/add a box to add some more torque to the 3.0 petrol engine as well.

Anyways the cost for petrol vs diesel is indeed a problem. But hey we only live once

If you buy cars based only on logic, a lot of choices dont make sense
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      07-17-2013, 11:22 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
You state the AT is never dropping rpm below torque peak? Hmmm??? I guess your AT needs some servicing then.
The M135i produces peak torque from just 1250rpm, the ZF8HP gearbox has lower gearing and different mapping than the diesel variants. Even in eco pro there's not many situations where you'd have less than 1250rpm.

Quote:
The 330d has a beefy 560Nm, the M135i has a respectable 450Nm. The 330d just delivers ~24% more grunt at low rpms, and seen it hits in a few rpms lower, it will provide you with at least this surplus every single time you push the accelerator. It's as simple as that.
It's torque at the wheels that accelerate a car though not at the engine.
The diesel 330d has around 24% more "Peak" torque but the diesel auto's have a 20% taller final drive and the 330d has peak torque over a much smaller rev range than the M135i. (330d 560NM 2000rpm to 2750rpm)(M135i 450NM 1250rpm to 5000rpm)
That means in any given gear the torque reaching the wheels is only 4% higher in the 330d and only for a very narrow rpm band. The M135i has the the advantage of using it's torque earlier in the rev range and for much longer in each gear.

Cheers
Lee

Last edited by logiclee; 07-17-2013 at 11:43 AM..
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      07-17-2013, 12:40 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclee View Post
That means in any given gear the torque reaching the wheels is only 4% higher in the 330d and only for a very narrow rpm band. The M135i has the the advantage of using it's torque earlier in the rev range and for much longer in each gear.
And the M135i is lighter as well, so it will feel like it has more torque than the 330d.
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      07-17-2013, 12:52 PM   #56
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Also adding the discussion above: BMW's recent petrol turbo engines are clearly underrated but imo less so the diesels; the Sport Auto Supertest for M135 included a dyno run of that car if you guys remember, which showed us that it is more of a 340 ps/500nm engine, not 450, which makes sense since the 1Ms (which BMW says us that has 20 hp and 50 nm on top of the M135i) indeed dynoed regularly and consistently around 360-380 ps and 550+ nm torque, so the advertised difference was still there, proportionally. Mine as one example, has repeated almost the same stock dyno numbers of GIAC test car and after a few basic mods it now stands at just 23whp down vs. a 2012 E92 M3 on the same dyno/conditions and it has 60% more torque than that M3; I have just a rear exhaust and catless N55 midpipe to affect the engine output, I have no engine tune, no intercooler, no intake, no down pipes, it makes a minimum 370 hp and over 560 nm, and I am speaking quite safe and conservative here.

So, the real world numbers of the torque delta between a M135i and 330d is probably much closer than 450 nm to 560 nm advertised figures suggest because BMW and other producers always put optimistic hp/tq figures about their new diesel engines in order to promote them against less expensive petrol units and vs. the competition from other brands.

I also have driven 330d before and there is no way I could believe that it has more torque virtually at any rpm than a 1M, maybe equals it at best and only during a very narrow band before 2500 something rpm, which confirms the numerical findings of the average dyno tests.

One of many reasons why I like the 1M so much is this; it has the torque of a 330d available as low but also the hp of E46 MC CSL, mated to a shortened E92 M3 chassis and its suspension components Way to celebrate the spirit of Frankenstein in M Division circles
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      07-17-2013, 12:56 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
And the M135i is lighter as well, so it will feel like it has more torque than the 330d.
Yep there's a 7% weight difference.

In gear times where torque at the wheels rules

4th Gear M135i 40-60mph 2.4 secs, 330d 2.6 secs
4th Gear M135i 50-70mph 2.5 secs, 330d 2.9 secs
5th Gear M135i 50-70mph 3.3 secs, 330d 3.5 secs
6th Gear M135i 50-70mph 4.4 secs, 330d 4.8 secs

In Kickdown where the power is king.
40-70mph M135i 3.0 secs, 330d 4.1 secs
50-90mph M135i 5.3 secs, 330d 7.2 secs.

Staying and lugging in gear at low rpm the M135i still has the advantage, squeeze a bit further and use kickdown and the performance difference is easy to see.

Cheers
Lee
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      07-17-2013, 05:19 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclee View Post
The M135i produces peak torque from just 1250rpm, the ZF8HP gearbox has lower gearing and different mapping than the diesel variants. Even in eco pro there's not many situations where you'd have less than 1250rpm.



It's torque at the wheels that accelerate a car though not at the engine.
The diesel 330d has around 24% more "Peak" torque but the diesel auto's have a 20% taller final drive and the 330d has peak torque over a much smaller rev range than the M135i. (330d 560NM 2000rpm to 2750rpm)(M135i 450NM 1250rpm to 5000rpm)
That means in any given gear the torque reaching the wheels is only 4% higher in the 330d and only for a very narrow rpm band. The M135i has the the advantage of using it's torque earlier in the rev range and for much longer in each gear.

Cheers
Lee
You're completely right about the torque at the wheels, but after many years of thinking this over and over again... I guess this is not necessarly relevant. Of course, in second gear at 1500rpm, the torque difference is levelled out like you calculate correctly, but the 330d will also drive faster at same rpm then! In your reasoning your reference is 'in the same gear', but I guess it should be 'at the same speed and rpm'.

When you extrapolate and compare a Fiat 500 with a Veyron, you don't mentally compare same gear acceleration, you will compare the 80 to 120mph. The Veyron will do this in 3rd gear, the Fiat will do this in 5th gear. It doesn't matter the Fiat partially compensates his lack of engine output with lower gearing in his 3rd gear since you won't be using it.

Now you'll state that the wider rpm range of the M135i allows comparable gear selection wrt 330d, and yes that's also true. But that's on the circuit. When you drive in normal traffic and care for some fuel efficiency, you'll go to highest comfortable gear... and then, you open the trap where the diesel wins. With my driving style (relaxed with short bursts of excessive torque), this trap is open 99% of the time and I guess I'am not alone.
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      07-17-2013, 05:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhold View Post
I do 200+ everyday and not on highways since they are too crowded I just love to rev it till 6.5k rpm. And the sound of the engine is just awesome. I have had a 325d chipped E92 before and while the torque is nice, i prefer the screaming higher revving petrol engine anytime. And if wanted you can chip/add a box to add some more torque to the 3.0 petrol engine as well.

Anyways the cost for petrol vs diesel is indeed a problem. But hey we only live once

If you buy cars based only on logic, a lot of choices dont make sense
You're an enthousiastic driver!

I guess what you describe is the reason I probably better don't buy the M135i, I've already lost my licence two times. And two times it was in a short burst of acceleration on an empty high road. These days, I stop accelerating at 120km/h and while driving like this, I often contemplate that my 520d is even way overengineered to do just that.

Man, whant a dream when I could drive to work on a closed circuit every day in on M135i! Political evolutions worldwide seem to indicate the chances this will become reality one day are perishing faster than snow in the summer.
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      07-17-2013, 05:43 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclee View Post
Yep there's a 7% weight difference.

In gear times where torque at the wheels rules

4th Gear M135i 40-60mph 2.4 secs, 330d 2.6 secs
4th Gear M135i 50-70mph 2.5 secs, 330d 2.9 secs
5th Gear M135i 50-70mph 3.3 secs, 330d 3.5 secs
6th Gear M135i 50-70mph 4.4 secs, 330d 4.8 secs

In Kickdown where the power is king.
40-70mph M135i 3.0 secs, 330d 4.1 secs
50-90mph M135i 5.3 secs, 330d 7.2 secs.

Staying and lugging in gear at low rpm the M135i still has the advantage, squeeze a bit further and use kickdown and the performance difference is easy to see.

Cheers
Lee
Ha... thanks for this... In a previous reply I argued that in real life (not in a race, but in daily traffic) you can't directly compare in gear accelerations since it's the speed/rpm range that dominate the experience.

With your figures I would compare the 50-70 in 6th in a M135i with the same speed range in 5th in a 330d. Why? Since the rpm range they evolve through is comparable then. Then the 330d needs 3,5 seconds versus 4,4 for the M135i.

Maybe you say this is not a fair comparison and you have a point, but on the other hand, why would "comparable rpm range" be less fair than "same gear"? I guess the latter is of NO relevance at all when you think it over. The mere fact I had to change gears 4 or 5 times to get me at 50mph is entirely irrelevant.
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      07-17-2013, 09:03 PM   #61
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      07-18-2013, 12:17 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
Ha... thanks for this... In a previous reply I argued that in real life (not in a race, but in daily traffic) you can't directly compare in gear accelerations since it's the speed/rpm range that dominate the experience.

With your figures I would compare the 50-70 in 6th in a M135i with the same speed range in 5th in a 330d. Why? Since the rpm range they evolve through is comparable then. Then the 330d needs 3,5 seconds versus 4,4 for the M135i.

Maybe you say this is not a fair comparison and you have a point, but on the other hand, why would "comparable rpm range" be less fair than "same gear"? I guess the latter is of NO relevance at all when you think it over. The mere fact I had to change gears 4 or 5 times to get me at 50mph is entirely irrelevant.
You wrongly assume both gearboxes are mapped the same and both cars have a similar width speed range in each gear.

In reality the ZF box in the diesel changes up early even with medium throttle inputs, with similar throttle inputs in the petrol the gears are held longer. Why? Because after 2750rpm the torque on the 330d is dropping away quickly, by 3500rpm it has less than the M135i. Unless you are on a very light throttle you'd probably find the petrol is in the same gear or even one less than the diesel. Driving in comfort mode briskly the ZF will happily keep the revs 3k-4krpm on the petrol. That's the petrols mid-range, still having another 1000rpm ceiling of maximum torque and 3000rpm below the red line.

And on the motorway with both cars in 8th the 330d only has a maximum of a 4% advantage (Before weight) and at the legal limit it's actually below it's peak torque figure, it doesn't reach that until 80mph. In 8th in the M135i the car has maximum torque available from 45mph to 155mph.

You can play these figures all day but the petrol cars shift down well before kickdown is operated and a lower gear is just 200 milliseconds away. We all know the result then.

Cheers
Lee
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      07-19-2013, 06:13 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclee View Post
You wrongly assume both gearboxes are mapped the same and both cars have a similar width speed range in each gear.

In reality the ZF box in the diesel changes up early even with medium throttle inputs, with similar throttle inputs in the petrol the gears are held longer. Why? Because after 2750rpm the torque on the 330d is dropping away quickly, by 3500rpm it has less than the M135i. Unless you are on a very light throttle you'd probably find the petrol is in the same gear or even one less than the diesel. Driving in comfort mode briskly the ZF will happily keep the revs 3k-4krpm on the petrol. That's the petrols mid-range, still having another 1000rpm ceiling of maximum torque and 3000rpm below the red line.

And on the motorway with both cars in 8th the 330d only has a maximum of a 4% advantage (Before weight) and at the legal limit it's actually below it's peak torque figure, it doesn't reach that until 80mph. In 8th in the M135i the car has maximum torque available from 45mph to 155mph.

You can play these figures all day but the petrol cars shift down well before kickdown is operated and a lower gear is just 200 milliseconds away. We all know the result then.

Cheers
Lee
You're right on the vanishing torque and power as from mid-range with the d, but you're talking already big numbers... not something you tap every sluggish within town driving.

When you're in highest gear, you're also right, the i will have higher rpm compared to the d which will have lost to large extent the torque advantage. On the other hand, it will consume 25% less delivering the same ooomph.

I refer to most other occasions where you just foolishly put your foot half way down at low rpm. For me this would be the dominant experience since it corresponds to mildly filled roads/highways during rush hour but also during off rush driving on roads filled with rediculous speed traps.

I fully agree when you live in Bayern, and drive mainly during night and off peak hours or you live on post 1 of the Nordschleiffe and go to work in post 2. Then the M135i is certainly the one yo have.

On the other hand, it's maybe also skewed to compare a passionate machine like the M135i with a more rational but also overqualified 330d? Don't know, both have same TCO though. YOLO... that's what youngsters say these days, not?
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      09-07-2013, 12:28 PM   #64
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I get the feeling the M135i beats it official figures and the A45 falls a little short of it's numbers. I just can't find it in my self to like the looks of the merc either. It has a somewhat 'cheap' look to its interior and the exterior looks boring too.
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