BMW 1-Series Forum (F20) 135i - 1Addicts.com > Second Generation 1 Series Forum > 2012 BMW 1-Series Sporthatch (F20) Discussion > No more manual transmission....
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      05-24-2013, 04:36 AM   #23
SteveC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowflow View Post
I get where you are coming from here. I did have to learn how to drive my A3 with the DSG box. However, once learned I realised how one dimensional it was. It could still be fun but the replacement of perfectly timing and throwing a stick into the correct slot while working the pedals with the pushing of a paddle with one finger just subtracted a little too much from driving for me. I did bless the thing every time i was stuck in traffic though and i have to say those moments are far more frequent than the fun drives these days.
That as a lover of stick shift, manual transmission cars, I may get to eventually feel that way too. However, the roads I like to drive up in North Yorkshire are very winding, with some really interesting bends that allow you to get into a lovely rhythm. So far, I've found it much harder to find a rhythm with AT than with MT because the timing and sequence of braking and downshifts are so different i.e early shift, late dab vs. braking deeper, late shift.
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      05-24-2013, 04:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
If you find it thrilling to learn when to flick the switch with your finger, then try to learn how and when to operate three pedals with two feet at the same time, oh yeah and the stick at the same time as well.
With respect, anyone who believes that driving a car quickly, smoothly and safely on a technically demanding winding road is a matter of twitching your finger must have a different definition of technically demanding or quickly.

Because the AT shifts so quickly and doesn't involve the quick tap dance before each corner (which I imagine most reasonably good drivers can do in their sleep), the braking and shift points often change quite radically and it can be quite difficult to find the right degree and sequence after years of driving an MT.
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      05-24-2013, 04:56 AM   #25
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Do you remember those plastic stick on steering wheels some of us had as kids? So you could drive like your Dad. Maybe BMW could make a fake clutch pedal for all the MT Luddites.
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      05-24-2013, 05:19 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creepy coupe View Post
Do you remember those plastic stick on steering wheels some of us had as kids? So you could drive like your Dad. Maybe BMW could make a fake clutch pedal for all the MT Luddites.
Hee hee. There was this little interview somewhere saying they'd save tons of money designing the car if there is only one single transmission option, and they can better utilize the space inside the cabinet, though I don't know what they mean by that.... Guess just can't stop what's comin'
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      05-24-2013, 07:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creepy coupe View Post
Do you remember those plastic stick on steering wheels some of us had as kids? So you could drive like your Dad. Maybe BMW could make a fake clutch pedal for all the MT Luddites.
The M135i I test drove was an auto. Nearly put a hole in the floor where the clutch would have been.

Last edited by tonywalk; 05-24-2013 at 07:39 AM.. Reason: Try and get sig to appear
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      05-24-2013, 07:45 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by tonywalk View Post
The M135i I test drove was an auto. Nearly put a hole in the floor where the clutch would have been.
I stick one leg out of the sunroof.
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      05-24-2013, 07:49 AM   #29
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I stick one leg out of the sunroof.
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      05-24-2013, 08:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
With respect, anyone who believes that driving a car quickly, smoothly and safely on a technically demanding winding road is a matter of twitching your finger must have a different definition of technically demanding or quickly.

Because the AT shifts so quickly and doesn't involve the quick tap dance before each corner (which I imagine most reasonably good drivers can do in their sleep), the braking and shift points often change quite radically and it can be quite difficult to find the right degree and sequence after years of driving an MT.
Exactly what I was saying. Learning 'when' to flick the switch.
Now don't tell me the actual action of flicking the switch is hard to learn?

If you need to learn to drive a manual, you don't only need to learn 'when' to shift, but also the hand-feet coordination of actually doing it.
Especially when you want to progress your driving skill and need to learn to brake and shift at the same time (very easy with AT and throttle blip, pretty difficult with MT)

Last edited by hwelvaar; 05-24-2013 at 09:24 AM..
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      05-24-2013, 03:21 PM   #31
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There's no doubt that automatic or automated transmissions are faster on track because they free the driver to focus on braking points, turn-in etc. However, and this is my personal opinion here, no twin-clutch box and not even bmw's hallowed 8AT gearbox can match the satisfaction of revmatching and correctly shifting a manual transmission.

In that note, it makes sense that race cars are ditching manual transmissions in favor of automated ones, but it saddens me nonetheless to see that road cars are headed in the same direction. I don't care if I could be faster with a dsg or a good slushbox on the street, because I'm not racing. Driving a stick just feels better.

I would've preferred a manual even if it costed more than the automatic. However and unfortunately, here in Brazil, BMW has stopped offering manuals completely (even on ///M cars) for quite a while now, and this sucks. Even if the majority of consumers go for automatics, I honestly think that the company that pursues the "ultimate driving machine" or "sheer driving pleasure" should at least offer the option to get a manual, even if just for the sake of its mottos.
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      05-24-2013, 04:27 PM   #32
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I'm still learning

how to get the best out of the ZF AT, however if I think of an automatic motor cycle, there's no way in hell I'd be interested. I'm still undecided with the M135i
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      05-24-2013, 06:23 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
how to get the best out of the ZF AT, however if I think of an automatic motor cycle, there's no way in hell I'd be interested. I'm still undecided with the M135i
There's a chap on another 1er F2x forum that's thinking of changing from manual to auto. Maybe you could swap cars.
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      05-24-2013, 11:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverZ View Post
Its not about being slow or not (some times ) its about practicality...

I used to be a huge fan of MT driving until I tried a DCT M3 & a DKG 335i.
It changed my world.

Even when I tried the auto 116i , the gearbox felt fantastic.
Give it a try...
I decided to give the new ZF sport AT a try in my 335i Msport.
After testing it a number of times the ZF AT is the best most responsive AT I've even driven, and I've been driving for over 30yrs.

However, after living with this excellent AT for 9 months I do miss the fun and interaction of using a MT. Yes, the AT is fast to 60 and in the 1/4, and it gets better MPG mostly due to the 2 over drive gears.
It's the fun to drive factor that is missing. Even though the AT can be fun, you have to consciously make yourself drive in manual mode, but it's just too easy to leave it in AT and let the trans do it's thing. That's when I get removed further from the driving experience.
With a MT you have to shift every time you drive or you won't get very far.
That makes the driver have to engage with the vehicle.

As sweet, fast, and efficient as the ZF 8spd sport AT is, I want my next automobile to be MT, and it would be great if it were a 7spd so that it could have 2 over drive gears with shorter 1 through 5.
I've read that the 2 series will come with the ZF 8spd AT standard.
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      05-25-2013, 10:16 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpagianotto View Post
There's no doubt that automatic or automated transmissions are faster on track because they free the driver to focus on braking points, turn-in etc.
When I drive on tracks with a manual transmission, I don't really think much about shifting. It is a background task in my mind. I will perhaps think about it between heats. What if I try to do that entire section in third gear, or shift down to second before that left hander? Once I am out on the track, I focus on other things. If I need more turn in, my mind will perhaps answer by shifting down early to rotate the car. Not really a conscious thought, but more as an extra tool in the toolbox. I just think more turn in, and it happens.
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      05-25-2013, 03:01 PM   #36
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First post. Needed to post it somewhere. Might just as well be here.

Been a member of the Norwegian chapter of BMW Car Club for years even though I have not owned a BMW for a while. Ironically, the first year I decide not to extend my membership; is the year that I actually buy a BMW again.

Delivery in week 26/27. 116i, with automatic. What can I say; it's relaxing.
Mineral Grey Metallic, M-package, 18", sunroof, and a few other bits and pieces.

Cheers,
Lasse

Last edited by lassem; 07-23-2013 at 01:02 AM..
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      05-26-2013, 02:38 PM   #37
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You can always reenter BMWCCN when you feel like it. We had a big event at Rudskogen this weekend. Several F20/F21s there.
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      05-26-2013, 07:32 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovekvam View Post
When I drive on tracks with a manual transmission, I don't really think much about shifting. It is a background task in my mind. I will perhaps think about it between heats. What if I try to do that entire section in third gear, or shift down to second before that left hander? Once I am out on the track, I focus on other things. If I need more turn in, my mind will perhaps answer by shifting down early to rotate the car. Not really a conscious thought, but more as an extra tool in the toolbox. I just think more turn in, and it happens.
Most of our actions when driving are performed subconsciously, but that doesn't mean our subconsciousness has unlimited focus. Being faster on track with an automated gearbox is true for both amateur and professional drivers, because it takes out a possible mistake factor. Even if shifting is second nature to you, it's impossible to guarantee that you're not going to fluctuate brake pressure while heel'n'toeing, or that you won't miss a gear on occasion. And when you do, precious time will be lost. That's what I meant when I said that people are faster with an automated gearbox. This has been thoroughly studied by racing teams too, there's plenty of data to back that up.

I too am able to drive a manual on the track without giving it much thought, though...

And like I said earlier, for my personal car, if I had the choice, I would trade these milliseconds, or tens of seconds I'd gain from an auto box for the driving feel and pleasure of shifting and revmatching myself. Not to mention that with a manual you can also clutch-kick your way into drifting, which is real fun! It takes a lot more effort to bring the tail out of an automatic, especially if that car is not too high on power.
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      05-27-2013, 12:54 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpagianotto View Post
However, and this is my personal opinion here, no twin-clutch box and not even bmw's hallowed 8AT gearbox can match the satisfaction of revmatching and correctly shifting a manual transmission.
Just a note (as it is not clear from your post): the BMW (ZF) 8-speed automatic it is NOT a dual-clutch gearbox, it is a "proper" (planetary) automatic with torque converter.
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      05-29-2013, 03:26 AM   #40
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BMW New Zealand only bring in autos but will order manuals as a special order. My next BMW will properly be a manual.
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