[Antares]

Originally Posted by aajami

As for the point that I bolded, this isn't going to factor into whether or not this car is the RWD M2 Gran Coupe or a so-called FWD 1-series sedan (which I don't see happening). BMW is already making a 2-series Gran Coupe, and making an M version doesn't have any impact on size at that point.

actually it factors because marketing and price differentiation work with one another; in other words, longer sedan is more expensive, shorter less; the marketing wants to avoid the situation of a 1or2 series sedan that is too close in length to 3er sedan (afraid people might think about it as a cheaper 3er)

[aajami]

Originally Posted by Antares

actually it factors because marketing and price differentiation work with one another; in other words, longer sedan is more expensive, shorter less; the marketing wants to avoid the situation of a 1or2 series sedan that is too close in length to 3er sedan (afraid people might think about it as a cheaper 3er)

But BMW has already confirmed the 2-series Gran Coupe. If you accept that as a given, the jump to an M2 Gran Coupe is a lot easier to fathom than an entirely new performance sedan based on the FWD 1-series platform. To speak nothing of the fact that even BMW, who seem to have forgotten what defined their corporate DNA for so long, would make the fatal mistake of making a FWD M-car.

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other.

[Antares]

@aajami
The 2 series Gran Coupe is far from a done deed.

The decision what to do is being pondered based on sales volumes, not "sport cars niche" manufacturer.

In other words, Gran Coupe or Sedan (no matter 2 or 1) needs to be calculated based on FWD/RWD short term and long term production costs projections.
-short term: big volume of RWD parts shared with current 1er, 3er make the final car as expensive as FWD (FWD is new for BMW)
-long term; FWD becomes more profitable; discussions that everything under 3 series could go FWD

A 2er Gran Coupe as such is difficult to price; the moment it enters the 3er price kingdom is becomes a niche volume model.
The new FWD 1er (2016) could be placed a little lower to accommodate 2er Gran Coupe, however, this would put the 2er Gran Coupe in a future far off.

Therefore a compromise needs to be reached; an emotional sedan (with more sporty appearance) that can be placed in the mainstream market and sold in big volumes.
Therefore, a 2er Gran Coupe as many here imagine is at the moment highly unlikely. (look at the photos of the cheap central console of the 4er Gran Coupe to see the reality)
The new 2er Coupe should take care of the highest emotions in this price segment.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Antares

@aajami
The 2 series Gran Coupe is far from a done deal.

The car's chassis code is public now (thanks to SCOTT) so it appears to be coming in all likelihood. That doesn't mean you can't debate it further, but it probably isn't the most exciting of discussions given the evidence. Just my opinion.

As for FWD M products (which makes for a much more interesting debate), which would potentially include an M Sedan 1 Series, I don't think we can rule it out at all. But I would expect hatchbacks before a sedan simply because the M2 GC will probably cover the market pretty well for those who want a small four door M. I use FWD loosely however - it would be more accurrate to say AWD Haldex. In any case, with products like the RS3 and TTRS (and coming A45 and CLA45) garnering such praise, it appears you don't need a RWD chassis to build a great small performance car (the key there being "small" - heavier, large cars need more power and really do best with the engine pointed north-south).

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The car's chassis code is public now (thanks to SCOTT) so it appears to be coming in all likelihood. That doesn't mean you can't debate it further, but it probably isn't the most exciting of discussions given the evidence. Just my opinion.

As for FWD M products (which makes for a much more interesting debate), which would potentially include an M Sedan 1 Series, I don't think we can rule it out at all. But I would expect hatchbacks before a sedan simply because the M2 GC will probably cover the market pretty well for those who want a small four door M. I use FWD loosely however - it would be more accurrate to say AWD Haldex. In any case, with products like the RS3 and TTRS (and coming A45 and CLA45) garnering such praise, it appears you don't need a RWD chassis to build a great small performance car (the key there being "small" - heavier, large cars need more power and really do best with the engine pointed north-south).

I would argue that the FWD-based Haldex systems of these cars is exactly their problem. It's fine for putting down quick lap times but they're never satisfying (to me) from behind the wheel. I love a good AWD car, I almost bought the current Audi S4 and the Subaru STI is one of my all time favorite cars but cars like the VW R32, TT-S (never driven an RS) and etc. always feel dull. They're not only front-heavy but also prone to plowing under power and have really vague steering.

My 135i is head and shoulders above any of those cars in terms of the way it feels in my hands so I sincerely hope the upcoming M2 continues to have this advantage over its rivals which will undoubtedly be amazing cars.

[Antares]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The car's chassis code is public now (thanks to SCOTT) so it appears to be coming in all likelihood. That doesn't mean you can't debate it further, but it probably isn't the most exciting of discussions given the evidence. Just my opinion.

As for FWD M products (which makes for a much more interesting debate), which would potentially include an M Sedan 1 Series, I don't think we can rule it out at all.
But I would expect hatchbacks before a sedan simply because the M2 GC will probably cover the market pretty well for those who want a small four door M. I use FWD loosely however - it would be more accurrate to say AWD Haldex.

The entire M line story is at the moment quite complicated.
As you pointed out, a hatchback would make sense; especially with a 4 wheel drive.
The problem is, that M should be a sub-brand (like that i-electric). It's even organized as a "separate" entity inside the company.
Such a hatchback would lower the M prestige; at the moment there is enough snickering about M not being present enough in markets like China, USA, Russia and similar (where great business can be done with such cars).
So, I think that the M sub-brand strategy is going to be worked out first, probably by marketing it in a different manner. BMW as such is going into mass production with FWD cars and some are seeing the M as future hardcore BMWs.
You can imagine that such a hatchback is not a piece in this puzzle.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Remonster

I would argue that the FWD-based Haldex systems of these cars is exactly their problem.

And you may have a valid point, but they seem to get good reviews in general. The TT RS especially has compared favorably to other similarly-sized cars, even stable mates like the Cayman. Some of that is helped by the I5 turbo engine which gets a lot of love. It will be interesting to see if VAG can follow up with something as compelling with four cylinders as Mercedes and BMW will attempt to do.

But I digress. In the small car market, RWD is a rarity. BMW's strategy involves both FWD and RWD cars now, but the volume sellers are all going to be FWD going forward. I think they will come up with some compelling "hot hatch"es that, despite not being RWD, nevertheless outpace the competition.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Antares

The entire M line story is at the moment quite complicated.
...
You can imagine that such a hatchback is not a piece in this puzzle.

I am not sure I fully understand your points, but I would say that the fact that M vehicles are now pushing limits (like the X6 M - an M SUV, an AWD M, previously blasphemy) successfully means that the door is wide open for further exploration. Couple that with the fact that there are plenty of small, FWD performance cars that get world renowned praise (even cars like a Civic Type R, or Ford Focus RS) means there are plenty of customers for BMW to sell to. You take the compelling story of the M brand and present something to this arms-and-minds-wide-open customer base and its not so hard to build a business case anymore.

[Antares]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am not sure I fully understand your points, but I would say that the fact that M vehicles are now pushing limits (like the X6 M - an M SUV, an AWD M, previously blasphemy) successfully means that the door is wide open for further exploration.
Couple that with the fact that there are plenty of small, FWD performance cars that get world renowned praise (even cars like a Civic Type R, or Ford Focus RS) means there are plenty of customers for BMW to sell to. You take the compelling story of the M brand and present something to this arms-and-minds-wide-open customer base and its not so hard to build a business case anymore.

Already a "normal" BMW is high above such cars like Civic Type R, Ford Focus RS and similar; those cars were once seen in Europe as something for a swaggerer.
Once, today they have no importance here. A kid from a medium class family would laugh at the car and even more at the driver. You must understand, there is a huge difference between mentality and habits in USA and Old countries.

BMW M cars should be refined and brutal (sort of Aston Martin from BMW).
Frankly, I was not interested in this M story some time back; therefore I cannot tell you where are the things going.