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      08-06-2012, 05:25 PM   #23
TheBingoBalls
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So much change in such a short period of time...

I understand that companies need to change/adapt to the market but what I can't stand is companies backtracking on their advertisements. You can't say FWD doesn't make an "Ultimate Driving Machine" and then produce a car.

With so many new models being introduced, would it hurt BMW to try to differentiate their brand? This may sound ridiculous to some people but if you want a FWD, go get a MINI - BMW should try to push that to market the MINI marque (it's not like the MINI doesn't have that fun factor BMW has, in fact, it might be even more fun minus the refined/comfort feel of BMW's.)

As a customer, this doesn't really affect me - I'll still look at BMW's for cars, my choices would just be slim. As a fan of the brand, very disappointed. I think BMW is trying way too hard to do way too much, and while that might be a good thing from a business point of view, I have a feeling it's going to negatively affect core models like the 3-Series.
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      08-06-2012, 05:28 PM   #24
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This is getting... interesting. I read somewhere not too long ago that most automotive CEOs say that in order for a company to survive in the future, it must be able to sell at least 3 million cars per annum.

Where is BMW these days, 1.7, 1.8 mil? I'm thinking this FWD model is a stab at upping units.

However... I've also read a crazy thought from some well respected journalist (I cannot remember that journalist's name btw.) that BMW and Mercedes (yes, Mercedes) might be thinking about sharing certain platforms and joining forces. Kind of like a merger without the merger part.

He detailed that it does make sense for both companies since most of their products are in the same segments (3 and C, 5 and E, S and 7, X5 and ML etc.). He speculated that we probably shouldn't expect to see shared chassis and engines between the two, but a lot more shared parts nonetheless. The S and 7 would apparently be kept separate since these are considered the "crown jewels" of each company.

Got your attention yet? Well, he also went on to say that the one model not quite fitting in in this grand plan was...

...wait for it...

--> The RWD 1 Series <--


It's about 2 years I reckon since I read that article, and here we are. A FWD BMW 1 Series is about to see the light of day very, very soon.

You have to admit, it does sort of stack up if you do the math: FWD 1 Series and A/ B Class models sharing numerous parts and suppliers, same for future 3 and C, and 5 and E. Perhaps even more models than that.
The thing with this strategy is that it's unlikely that it will help either BMW or Mercedes reach 3 mil. units per annum, but it will probably decrease costs dramatically.

Will it happen? Will we be seeing a 1 Series GT ala B Class shortly after the FWD 1 Series? Will BMW and Merc jump into bed together? Can we expect a BMW-Benz any time soon? Hold on to your buttcheecks folks, there be strange times ahead (maybe).


EDIT: Also maybe worth pondering, is it any coincidence that the new A Class has ditched the sandwich floor?

Last edited by kooper; 08-06-2012 at 05:35 PM.
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      08-07-2012, 12:06 AM   #25
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This may share the Mini Traveller platform. I think the rear doors will slide back too from what I understand. I hope and pray BMW makes them look better then this. Also BMW better give these Baby BMW's Rear-Bias xDrive of sorts or they are telling their core customers not to consider buying the entry level stuff.

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BMW can call this car whatever they want to FWD 1er, 1er GT, MB B-class fighter, ect..). Most of us can't stand the thought of a FWD BMW!! To me its the mini van that has been reported for years - coming to a market near you soon!

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      08-07-2012, 02:14 AM   #26
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BMW van?! Wtf?!
They should consider to make proper 2 coupe/vert/Gran Turismo near the rwd and x-drive 1 series, but not these stupid vans. I also think that Mini van will not have a great success
Coutryman is a great small SUV and it's sporty enough!
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      08-07-2012, 02:52 AM   #27
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what a load of markeing bull.... revolutionary FWD car
Thought some of you may find this interesting.
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthre...9#post12458869
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      08-07-2012, 03:19 AM   #28
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Will the real Scott26 please stand up?

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Originally Posted by SpokenHands View Post


Thought some of you may find this interesting.
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthre...9#post12458869
re: Will the real Scott26 please stand up?

Its always been "known" that Scott26 (& Scott27) are not just one person but a bunch of people who work for BMW's marketing dept. And while he does seem to spoon feed us some good tibits from time to time... he is wrong (on the detials) a lot of the time too.
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      08-07-2012, 07:30 AM   #29
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Up to now it was enough to say " I drive a BMW". No need to specify which model.
This days will be gone soon...
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      08-07-2012, 07:38 AM   #30
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BMW need to utilize FWD in some form to survive, and make Mini more profitable. Anything larger than a 1 series will never user FWD, b/c they do not use the Mini chassis, same with the standard 1 series.

Also I am surprised BMW lasted this long without FWD.
All other manufactures that make only RWD cars are owned by another larger economy car brand(Porsche,Ferrari,Jaguar,Lambo). BMW is independent, and if they need few niche FWD vehicles to stay that way I'm all for it.
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      08-07-2012, 07:45 AM   #31
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I own a 2007 BMW 118i E87 Hatchback which I inherited from my sister. I am generally happy with the car but it has two major drawbacks thanks to its RWD layout.

The first drawback is for the rear passengers. I am a big guy at 6'4". In a car like the 1-Series, I need to slide the front seat back all the way - which means only an amputee has comfortable seating space in the back. But even with the seat not slid back all the way, rear leg space remains extremely limited. Part of the problem is that the transmission tunnel in the E87s is unusually wide and high (much higher and wider than in the coupes which you get in America).

The second problem is driving in the winter. This is my daily driver. I am a professional photographer who needs to visit clients here and there. In the winters my car is useless, especially when I head down to places like Kitzbühel where 70% of the roads are not cleared of ice and snow.

Let's face it. In a modern compact car that stresses family values, RWD is completely impractical. It's far to space consuming. Sure, it will drive great, but most people will feel a FWD car drives great to (everyone has a different opinion of what "driving" is).

For my next car I am not even looking at a BMW. I am looking at a FWD Citroen C5 Tourer / Citroen C4 Aircross SUV which is stylish, spacious, comfortable and I won't have the traction and getting-stuck problems in the winter which I've had with my 118i.

Now don't get me wrong. I love my car, I really do. It drives great and is fun, but I am not one of those "I need RWD or I'll walk" diehards. Personally I actually prefer FWD/AWD to RWD because to me it has more real-world benefits.

The third generation 1-Series will very likely, according to most reports, be FWD. Why? Because BMW has to become competitive in this class in the criteria that the average buyer wants: interior space, increased practicality etc. The result? The few enthusiasts like us might complain, but the average consumer out there will rejoice because now the 1er will be more practical, more spacious and even return better fuel economy than before.

Besides, it's not like BMW will make the 3-Series' FWD. Only the smaller, compact BMWs may get FWD and it will make those cars more competitive against their rivals from a practical point of view.

Also, there are many great driving FWD cars out there. In my line of work I am at many motorsport and drifting events and I meet a lot of hardcore BMW owners who swear by RWD. Yet, many of them also respect and give the nod to impressive FWD performance cars like the Renault Megane RS / Trophy RS or the Peugeot RCZ, the former which has gotten superb reviews here in Europe. In fact many of these BMW owners I meet who have driven the Renault Megane RS / Trophy RS claim it drives like a RWD car thanks in part to a sophisticated differential lock at the front wheels. And in a few European reviews the Renault Megane RS / Trophy RS and Peugeot RCZ have outhandled and outperformed a BMW 1er Coupe on the track - and this was not on a wet track.
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      08-07-2012, 07:51 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
I own a 2007 BMW 118i E87 Hatchback which I inherited from my sister. I am generally happy with the car but it has two major drawbacks thanks to its RWD layout.

The first drawback is for the rear passengers. I am a big guy at 6'4". In a car like the 1-Series, I need to slide the front seat back all the way - which means only an amputee has comfortable seating space in the back. But even with the seat not slid back all the way, rear leg space remains extremely limited. Part of the problem is that the transmission tunnel in the E87s is unusually wide and high (much higher and wider than in the coupes which you get in America).

The second problem is driving in the winter. This is my daily driver. I am a professional photographer who needs to visit clients here and there. In the winters my car is useless, especially when I head down to places like Kitzbühel where 70% of the roads are not cleared of ice and snow.

Let's face it. In a modern compact car that stresses family values, RWD is completely impractical. It's far to space consuming. Sure, it will drive great, but most people will feel a FWD car drives great to (everyone has a different opinion of what "driving" is).

For my next car I am not even looking at a BMW. I am looking at a FWD Citroen C5 Tourer / Citroen C4 Aircross SUV which is stylish, spacious, comfortable and I won't have the traction and getting-stuck problems in the winter which I've had with my 118i.

Now don't get me wrong. I love my car, I really do. It drives great and is fun, but I am not one of those "I need RWD or I'll walk" diehards. Personally I actually prefer FWD/AWD to RWD because to me it has more real-world benefits.

The third generation 1-Series will very likely, according to most reports, be FWD. Why? Because BMW has to become competitive in this class in the criteria that the average buyer wants: interior space, increased practicality etc. The result? The few enthusiasts like us might complain, but the average consumer out there will rejoice because now the 1er will be more practical, more spacious and even return better fuel economy than before.

Besides, it's not like BMW will make the 3-Series' FWD. Only the smaller, compact BMWs may get FWD and it will make those cars more competitive against their rivals from a practical point of view.

Also, there are many great driving FWD cars out there. In my line of work I am at many motorsport and drifting events and I meet a lot of hardcore BMW owners who swear by RWD. Yet, many of them also respect and give the nod to impressive FWD performance cars like the Renault Megane RS / Trophy RS or the Peugeot RCZ, the former which has gotten superb reviews here in Europe. In fact many of these BMW owners I meet who have driven the Renault Megane RS / Trophy RS claim it drives like a RWD car thanks in part to a sophisticated differential lock at the front wheels. And in a few European reviews the Renault Megane RS / Trophy RS and Peugeot RCZ have outhandled and outperformed a BMW 1er Coupe on the track - and this was not on a wet track.
Welcome to the forum!
"bmw marketing power poster"??
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      08-07-2012, 08:02 AM   #33
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Welcome to the forum!
"bmw marketing power poster"??
Thanks.

I like to keep an open mind. I think the average consumer who have to live with a 1-Series Hatchback on a daily basis - such as me - are quick to realize that RWD isn't always the best alternative for this car from a practicality point of view.

I know that many diehards will attack me and claim I am some sort of "hater" but I feel I gave a very open-minded and objective response.
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      08-07-2012, 08:09 AM   #34
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I don't know... A leader have to follow the others?!
Or have to be followed!
It's clear that BMW needs to sell more, but it has to remain "The ultimate driving machine"!
Why not a rwd Z2 instead of that stupid van???? 1,6l 18i the base model! Complete the range with the 1 series engines! Uhhhh
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      08-07-2012, 08:46 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
Thanks.

I like to keep an open mind. I think the average consumer who have to live with a 1-Series Hatchback on a daily basis - such as me - are quick to realize that RWD isn't always the best alternative for this car from a practicality point of view.
I respect your points of view, but I agree in only one of them: RWD and a longitudinal mounted engine takes up more passenger space than a queer engine and FWD.

When it comes to winter driving it's mostly about driving technic and a set of good winter tyres. Except for my Mini, all my cars have been RWD and I get stuck on snow and ice very seldom. It's virtually a non existing problem. I am careful to select quality spikeless winter tyres made for nordic climate.
Also a BMW is well designed for winter driving, since the weight distribution is close to 50/50.

I guess it all comes down to personal preferences, and it's nothing wrong about that
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      08-07-2012, 08:47 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
Thanks.

I like to keep an open mind. I think the average consumer who have to live with a 1-Series Hatchback on a daily basis - such as me - are quick to realize that RWD isn't always the best alternative for this car from a practicality point of view.

I know that many diehards will attack me and claim I am some sort of "hater" but I feel I gave a very open-minded and objective response.
It just reminds a bit of convincing meat lovers to live vegeterian.
BMW's never have been the most practical cars and it did not matter but added to their sharp brand image - being authentic.
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      08-07-2012, 09:03 AM   #37
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The problem is that there are no other manufacturers left in the RWD compact car market. If you want a compact car in the future it will be FWD (or AWD). And if so you might just as well buy it from BMW

Let's hope they at least keep one sporty RWD niche car for the enthusiasts, paralel to the FWD platform. Toyota just reintroduced RWD on a niche model. If the Japanese see this business oportunity, why not BMW?

BMW Group should let Mini take care of the FWD business (where they do a good job) and let the BMW brand take RWD to even higher levels, loyal to it's heritage and faithful customers.

But what do I know, being just a simple engineer and not a fancy marketing expert
I totally agree about Mini--if that's where you want "volume" sales, then create an economy model there with the known FWD layout and call it a day. There is no need to create brand dilution and confusion by inserting it into the BMW line.

I don't think BMW will ever lose the RWD platform...I just think we will continue to see the watered-down, jack of all trades, I can build anything (at the cost of not being great at anything) approach...which didn't work for GM...or Chrysler...or Ford...but what do I know either?

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if Space is of no issue , Porsche is the way to go although it costs fair bit more.
I would love a Cayman...I am a single dude without kids or even a dog. so space isn't an issue for me...it just seems insane to spend $1,000 a month on a car...so that's what has held me back in the past. Maybe I can pick up a nice used one when it is time to dump the 135...
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      08-07-2012, 09:26 AM   #38
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Calm down everyone! This post is obviously a mistake, and somehow next year's April Fool's joke was published too early. Like BMW would actually try to market a FWD 4 cylinder mass produced Corolla competitor! This is plainly a joke.
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      08-07-2012, 09:34 AM   #39
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cawimmer430, you obviously have a car that does not suit you. One that doesn't correspond to your needs. There are plenty of cars available that would suit you better.

Although I got the f20 not the e87 but still...the things you see as problems/downsides to the car are what I consider the benefits with the 1er =) I'm 190cm tall, if rear passenger space was of any concern I wouldn't consider the 1er. I drive 95% alone or with one passenger... rather appreciate having a somewhat small car easy to find parkingspace in town/home.

I also got plenty of winter here in sweden with snow and ice, optimal for a rwd car in my point of view since I love going sideways. And if I don't, I'll just leave the antispin/DSC/whatnot on.

for me bmw is a brand to choose when you look for something else. When you are NOT looking for the super-practical-spacious-fwd-easy-to-drive-car-that-every-other-brand-can-provide.

If bmw will offer both rwd and fwd versions that's fine but it would be sad if fwd becomes the only option. I think bmw should keep doing what they always been doing. keep up the good work, don't change the concept. Obviously it worked so far, and sales record are broken one after another?! no need to try to get the Citroen Picasso drivers over to bmw or whatever.... let citroen have them
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      08-07-2012, 10:14 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP
*yawn*

Please get over it guys, FWD BMW's are on the way, and technically have already been here for some time *cough* Mini *cough.*
No doubt!

No one is forcing anyone to buy a fwd car. BMW seems to be selling a few of them as MINIs. If a high volume fwd car ensures the next crop of unique M vehicles then that's fine. I'll stick with the rwd vehicles and not whine about fwd models.

Porsche is readying their second suv. Ferrarri made a 4 door wagon. Porsche is now considering a wagon.

Etc
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      08-07-2012, 10:17 AM   #41
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Y'all forget that this forum doesn't represent the majority of BMW owners, nor do the majority care about FWD vs RWD.
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      08-07-2012, 11:04 AM   #42
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The Revolutionary...1.


Sometimes sketches lure you into a self-style of belief that this car is going to really , really sleek. (think of the first Panamera sketches) and then once you have to take aerodynamics and packaging into consideration it comes out the opposite you initially expected.
Like the 5GT perhaps?
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      08-08-2012, 05:16 AM   #43
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I respect your points of view, but I agree in only one of them: RWD and a longitudinal mounted engine takes up more passenger space than a queer engine and FWD.
Indeed. But the 118i motor is relatively small and compact, so the intrusion into the cabin isn't that drastic. For what it is, the 1er E87 is surprisingly roomy upfront.

What does take away a lot of cabin space is the high and wide transmission tunnel in the E87 to accommodate the driveshaft. This really takes away precious leg space.

My father has a 2010 Mercedes E350 CGI and the transmission tunnel at the rear is narrower and lower. Why is the transmission tunnel in a 1er higher and wider? That question has bugged me ever since...



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Originally Posted by Superspeed View Post
When it comes to winter driving it's mostly about driving technic and a set of good winter tyres. Except for my Mini, all my cars have been RWD and I get stuck on snow and ice very seldom. It's virtually a non existing problem. I am careful to select quality spikeless winter tyres made for nordic climate.
Also a BMW is well designed for winter driving, since the weight distribution is close to 50/50.
True. However, I am not really a performance enthusiast. I don't drive passionately most of the time. Once in a while I drive in a sporty fashion when I don't have my gear loaded up in my car and the 1er copes beautifully. But most of the time, my car remains a basic daily driver which I use to get from A to B to visit clients and do my job.

For my needs, I actually require a car that is simply capable in the winter regardless whether or not I have good winter tires or a good driving technique. In my area of Germany the winters are harsh and there are many roads in smaller towns which are not cleared of snow and ice. In such cases the best winter tires and driving techniques are not going to help much for a RWD car.

So, AWD or FWD for me based on pure necessity and the fact that I really don't need RWD or will miss it in my car. Again, don't get me wrong. I love my 118i, but it's a pain to drive in the winter (or even when it rains).



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Originally Posted by Superspeed View Post
I guess it all comes down to personal preferences, and it's nothing wrong about that
It does come down to personal preference. I would never have opted for a 1-Series in the first place but I inherited the car from my sister - who bought the car for the badge. She was also considering an Alfa Romeo 147, Opel Corsa, MINI Cooper and Fiat Punto, which are all FWD.

I like the 1er. It's fun to drive and even in 118i guise has a lot of agility. It's clearly the class-leader in driving dynamics thanks to its RWD layout. However, driving dynamics aside, it remains uncompetitive in its class in terms of interior space, rear occupant leg space, packaging efficiency and these are qualities that matter to people in this class. Hence, the 3rd generation 1er will switch to FWD in order to become more competitive.

Also, remember that survey where 80% of 1-Series owners thought their car was FWD? It's a clear sign that a FWD 1-Series will sell because the majority buyers don't care.

There will still be RWD BMWs to choose from. BMW is a business and businesses have to adapt to market demands. A decade ago nobody would have expected BMW to offer a lineup that's predominantly switching to forced-induction motors. I remember those days. The hardcore BMW fans were dissing forced-induction, then went out and bought a 335i because it was so fast.
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      08-08-2012, 05:23 AM   #44
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It just reminds a bit of convincing meat lovers to live vegeterian.

BMW's never have been the most practical cars and it did not matter but added to their sharp brand image - being authentic.
The addition of FWD to the BMW lineup won't change a thing in my opinion. They'll still be fun-to-drive cars and they'll still be predominantly RWD.

Only the really small compact BMWs will employ FWD out of a practical and competitive necessity. The enthusiasts will moan, the majority of customers will see the benefits.

I'm going to pull some numbers out of thin air now and say that 95% of BMW purchasers are "customers" and the other 5% are "enthusiasts". You're a business and businesses are here to make a profit. Who are you going to target? The many customers, or the few enthusiasts? In order to remain in business and build some special cars for the enthusiasts, BMW has to give in somewhere and build cars that their customers, not their enthusiasts, want.

The addition of forced-induction to the BMW engine lineup has not deterred people from buying them. Sure, some enthusiasts moan and complain but what are they driving right now? A 135i or a 335i etc.
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