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      07-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Please don t believe everything Scott writes. He has been wrong a few times. He likes to hype the internet. I have listen a few times to him but i stopped reading his posts.

Last thing bmw wants is a high power 4 cil turbo with a lot of lag. If you want a lot of horse power out of a 4 cil engine you need bigger turbo s and that means more lag. A new M2 needs at least 350hp to make sales over a M135i.

Why is the 1M that good because it has almost the throttle response of a normal aspirated engine. A lot of base power is already coming from the 3.0 6 cil. The boost is not that high. Then you a get a nice throttle response.

I have driven/owned evo s and subaru s with 350hp and that is a lot throttle lag compared to the 1M.

I don t think bmw is going to develop a new ///M engine for the M2. They want to make money. The M2 is not the car which have the sales of an M3/M4 so if they want to make money of it it needs to be a partly parts bin car like the 1M is. That s not a bad thing like we all know now!!!

I think the best way is to put in detuned M3/M4 engine in it with aproxx 350hp.

First of all why does the 1M exist.

Because it uses a lot of parts from the M3 E92. Complete new development of an 1M would never happen. It all about the money guys. I think the same counts for M2. Maybe they use the same engine of the 1M and rework it to get better co2 and add 10hp.

I do think they are testing a 4 cil in an M2. But after a few back to back tests with an 1M they know which way to go.
Agree with everything you say. And yes, 'Scott2x' has been wrong on so many things over the yrs/over the various forums, that at best his success rate is 50%, and for the things he is right about, those have generally been spilled by the auto press already...
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      07-07-2012, 08:47 AM   #46
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I love the subaru wrx exhaust notes.
The Subaru Sti catless does indeed sound wicked.

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      07-07-2012, 09:12 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post
Please don t believe everything Scott writes. He has been wrong a few times. He likes to hype the internet. I have listen a few times to him but i stopped reading his posts.

Last thing bmw wants is a high power 4 cil turbo with a lot of lag. If you want a lot of horse power out of a 4 cil engine you need bigger turbo s and that means more lag. A new M2 needs at least 350hp to make sales over a M135i.

Why is the 1M that good because it has almost the throttle response of a normal aspirated engine. A lot of base power is already coming from the 3.0 6 cil. The boost is not that high. Then you a get a nice throttle response.

I have driven/owned evo s and subaru s with 350hp and that is a lot throttle lag compared to the 1M.

I don t think bmw is going to develop a new ///M engine for the M2. They want to make money. The M2 is not the car which have the sales of an M3/M4 so if they want to make money of it it needs to be a partly parts bin car like the 1M is. That s not a bad thing like we all know now!!!

I think the best way is to put in detuned M3/M4 engine in it with aproxx 350hp.

First of all why does the 1M exist.

Because it uses a lot of parts from the M3 E92. Complete new development of an 1M would never happen. It all about the money guys. I think the same counts for M2. Maybe they use the same engine of the 1M and rework it to get better co2 and add 10hp.

I do think they are testing a 4 cil in an M2. But after a few back to back tests with an 1M they know which way to go.
Agreed with your comments with Scott2x. After all, that is his job to hype up the forums, and monitor our reaction to his comments. I don't think Scott2x is wrong, the engineers just changed direction.

IIRC you didn't believe the 1M will give the response it gives, so BMW might surprise us again with a lag free four banger? Remember a four cylinder was already in development in the early stage of E82 as the tti.
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      07-08-2012, 05:23 PM   #48
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This is a really interesting thread and I have been thinking about this for a bit. I heard talk at Cars and Coffee yesterday about people are waiting for the M2 so they can get one at a reasonable price and it will "put those guys asking 60K for a 1M in their place." So the M2 is a big deal for us that love the 1M so here are my thoughts:

On 4 vs 6 Cylinder
The 6 has a nicer sound and less vibration than a 4 cylinder in general but the 1M should be about outright performance in my humble opinion. In this case, if you can make a 4 Cylinder M2 that weighs 500 lbs less with less turbo-lag, then that's a winner. While I love the 6, I didn't buy the 1M for smoothness. If I wanted that I would've gotten a Lexus. Car and Driver found the current 4 cylinder to be a little more coarse then the 6....and they liked it! If done right, it can sound cool and give you more performance per lb.

We already lost the "sound" war with turbo-charging and the award for best sound goes to the E90/92 M3. Despite this, I chose the 1M over the better sounding E90 because it felt much more dynamic and exciting at lower speeds and RPMs.

At very high speeds it feels a little scary...in a good and exciting way where the M3 feels more secure....ZZZZZZ.

"All about performance"
So after saying it's all about performance, I figured we need to define this better. There are already reviews on the M135 and 135is comparing it to the 1M. They say these are a better value, just as fast, cheaper etc. It is all true but if you read the fine print the electric steering is not quite as good and there is no full-lock diff. The suspension is more steel and less aluminum than ours and it comes with electro-mechanical shocks for a cushier ride. You can also get an automatic and probably sunroof too. Even internally, Dackel mentioned the N54 is all forged internally while the N55 is more cast.

So while the numbers are the same, how they feel, perform and are built is very different. There are 100 cars today that would beat an E30 M3 around the track or 0-60 yet the E30 M3 is a more desirable machine for how it feels doing it. I learned this lesson when I flew in a 1930s open-cockpit biplane. It so much more thrilling going 70 mph in that thing than going 650 mph in a 747 and maybe even more thrilling than going 1,400 mph in the Concorde!


1M vs M2
I think the M2 has the potential of being a significantly better machine especially if they make weight a priority and the 4 cylinder is a big part of this. If you don't believe me take an engine block and chop off 1/3. Then chop off 1/3 of the head, throw away a couple of pistons, rods, rod caps, bolts, chop the cam down and put all that aluminum in tub. Right away you've saved all that weight. Now it takes less coolant, oil and probably a smaller intercooler too. All of this adds up.

You also have the partnership with the carbon fiber company and you can throw some carbon bits in there and make a great machine that anyone can buy. All of those people that are still bitter about they way they were treated by dealerships trying to get a 1M will have a new hero and the value of 1M will probably drop significantly if the M2 is done correctly.

With that said, I believe the 1M represents something special that can be remembered for future generations and still might make it more desireable after the M2 comes out:

1. It will probably be the last BMW ONLY offered with a manual transmission.
2. It will probably be the last M car only offered with a stiff non-adjustable mechanical suspension.
3. It was first use of air-curtain technology in a BMW. I can already see the copy-cat body kits.
4. I think the 1M will be last hairy-chested, testorenized ///M car made. If you want one, you HAVE to drive a stick, give up the sunroof and live with a stiff suspension and undersized gas tank and you only got it in three colors....

So a lot depends on how the M2 is built but I'm not hopeful. I was dissapointed so many 1Ms were ordered fully loaded and the calls for automatics. BMW has to make their customers happy so the M2 will have all the fluffy stuff optional or included...... and that is exactly what will make the 1M special and relevant.

Despite all the loaded 1Ms, it's still the last hairy-chested ///M car. The next generation ///M cars will be more James Bond, Tuxedo super fast luxury machines as witnessed by the piped in digital engine sound in the M5.

So I believe that this is the 1Ms claim to classic-hood...and while heavier, slower and less refined than the M2, it will be more significant in the future much like the E30 M3 is today.

Ask yourself would Steve McQueen drive a stiff, manual 1M or an automatic, electro-magnetic suspended M2?

Last edited by nachob; 07-08-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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      07-08-2012, 05:33 PM   #49
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Nachob thats a really good synopsis.

But point 3 is wrong. The air curtain tech on the 1M is a descendent of technology that has been employed on European big rig trucks for the past 10-15 years.

It's a neat piece of aero tech, and I'm surprised it's taken this long to make it to road cars.

Keep up with the rest of it though. I totally agree with it,
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      07-08-2012, 07:51 PM   #50
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Great post Nachob! I'm with you and Steve McQueen!
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      07-08-2012, 08:00 PM   #51
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Nachob, agree with most if not all of your post and especially the part that I quoted below.

And don't forget that 1M is not only the last of the "hairy chested" M car, but it is also the "first" one after a long interval!

If done in a brave and uncompromising way the M2 can and will make the top spot in my next wish list. But, like you, I also believe that it is not very likely, with this base car F20 but let's wait and see. My guess, BMW will be totally concentrated in i8 and its versions in terms of bringing a novelty to the market.

For now, the Alfa 4C which will be ready for sale in a year or so (Summer 2013 according to most recent reports) and will stick with a 1M level price tag, a sub 1000 kg. (around 850 to 900) weight, extensive use of light materials, a race suspension, mid-mounted and ultra efficient engine (4 cylinder, 1750 cc with up to 300 ps expected) and rear wheel drive with a striking body work is still the only approaching ride (or its spyder alternative) I am expecting to be seriously tempted by and at least in theory that could convince me to sell my 1M.

The 1M used prices will fall soon (maybe already started) but will remain quite stable after that natural drop imo. Like the stock exchange, owners who do not plan or willing to keep it long time better watch these trends and not find themselves in the middle of a panic sale

[quote=nachob;12289297]

So a lot depends on how the M2 is built but I'm not hopeful. I was dissapointed so many 1Ms were ordered fully loaded and the calls for automatics. BMW has to make their customers happy so the M2 will have all the fluffy stuff optional or included...... and that is exactly what will make the 1M special and relevant.
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      07-09-2012, 11:45 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advevo View Post

Last thing bmw wants is a high power 4 cil turbo with a lot of lag. If you want a lot of horse power out of a 4 cil engine you need bigger turbo s and that means more lag. A new M2 needs at least 350hp to make sales over a M135i.

Why is the 1M that good because it has almost the throttle response of a normal aspirated engine. A lot of base power is already coming from the 3.0 6 cil. The boost is not that high. Then you a get a nice throttle response.

I have driven/owned evo s and subaru s with 350hp and that is a lot throttle lag compared to the 1M.
I'm pretty sure what your talking about is a non-linear torque curve due to turbo spool. This has very little to do with the throttle response of the car. You can make the gas pedal as twitchy as you want but it won't make any difference until the RPMs are high enough and the exhaust gas is creating enough pressure over the impeller blades to spin the turbo and force air into the throttle body. The 1M is actually a great example of this. M mode mainly remaps the throttle response to make the car "feel" faster many dyno's show there is little to no change in actual horsepower with M engaged.

Also, one can build a 350+ HP four cylinder turbo charged engine with a linear torque curve. Conceptually its fairly simple, you take a 2.0 to 2.5 liter cylinder motor tweak the compression ratio and install two turbos. One that has a low RPM operating efficiency and one that has a high RPM operating efficiency. You then tune them to roll off / on in sequence such that your torque curve remains mostly constant. A good engineer could even channel exhaust gas based on RPM to control spool and reduce lag and control heat and wastegate duty in the smaller turbo at high RPM.


In practicality this is more expensive, technically complex and difficult to maintain than traditional parallel turbo setups. In the past it has not made much sense to go this route due to these factors. In short, its easier to make those HP numbers with a V6 and two small turbos spinning at the same time. However, emissions standard and gas prices are forcing car builders to get creative with engine design and dual stage turbos is one option.

All that said, it can and has been done one example of a sequential twin turbo production car is the Mark IV Toyota supra.
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      07-09-2012, 01:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
4. I think the 1M will be last hairy-chested, testorenized ///M car made. If you want one, you HAVE to drive a stick, give up the sunroof and live with a stiff suspension and undersized gas tank and you only got it in three colors....
..... at the HAVE to drive a stick comment.
The way you Americans bang on about this on forums you make it seem like driving a manual is something akin to understanding Quantum mechanics.....

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      07-09-2012, 02:13 PM   #54
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You guys still get a choice in UK here in US they are making it very difficult to get a manual if that's what you like. Some of us yanks don't like being told you can only have an automatic.., I guess it's an American thing.
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      07-09-2012, 02:44 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by nachob View Post
You guys still get a choice in UK here in US they are making it very difficult to get a manual if that's what you like. Some of us yanks don't like being told you can only have an automatic.., I guess it's an American thing.
I know where youre coming from on this and I agree its more than ridiculous.

GeeRam for ex... My younger sister wanted a 2Dr. NISSAN Altima coupe WITH a manual gearbox. Sounds like a pretty standard request no?

They wanted to charge her an ADDITIONAL $2500 to "special order" one with a manual. I almost lost my lunch in disgust when she told me about this. (obviously she told them they can go..... )

It's crazy to think that a silly little import company like Nissan does this, it used to cost extra for the damn automatics! Ridiculous
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      07-10-2012, 01:44 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnizu View Post
I'm pretty sure what your talking about is a non-linear torque curve due to turbo spool. This has very little to do with the throttle response of the car. You can make the gas pedal as twitchy as you want but it won't make any difference until the RPMs are high enough and the exhaust gas is creating enough pressure over the impeller blades to spin the turbo and force air into the throttle body. The 1M is actually a great example of this. M mode mainly remaps the throttle response to make the car "feel" faster many dyno's show there is little to no change in actual horsepower with M engaged.

Also, one can build a 350+ HP four cylinder turbo charged engine with a linear torque curve. Conceptually its fairly simple, you take a 2.0 to 2.5 liter cylinder motor tweak the compression ratio and install two turbos. One that has a low RPM operating efficiency and one that has a high RPM operating efficiency. You then tune them to roll off / on in sequence such that your torque curve remains mostly constant. A good engineer could even channel exhaust gas based on RPM to control spool and reduce lag and control heat and wastegate duty in the smaller turbo at high RPM.


In practicality this is more expensive, technically complex and difficult to maintain than traditional parallel turbo setups. In the past it has not made much sense to go this route due to these factors. In short, its easier to make those HP numbers with a V6 and two small turbos spinning at the same time. However, emissions standard and gas prices are forcing car builders to get creative with engine design and dual stage turbos is one option.

All that said, it can and has been done one example of a sequential twin turbo production car is the Mark IV Toyota supra.
He meant what he meant. You should watch some of his videos first - search for advevo in youtube. .
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      07-10-2012, 09:34 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by formula M View Post
I will add this:

The //M2 will be a clubsport orientated machine. It will weigh considerably less than the M235i. It's engine doesn't matter, but at least 340lb-ft of true M sauce.

It will outhandle any BMW!

Less is moAr...! (we can only hope..^)
Don't get me wrong, enthusiasm is a good thing but how could you know all these will really happen? A deepening global economic crisis in 2013 and we will end up with no M2 or Z2 or M1 supercar etc. just the M performance models, diesels and maybe electrics will continue strong because they make more "sense". Simple as that. Do you have an idea how long it took for the BMW board to authorize the 1M which was relatively cheap and easy due to its "parts bin" character? So, let's celebrate when we see the details (weight, power, design and so).

Last edited by ozinaldo; 07-10-2012 at 11:17 AM.
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      07-10-2012, 10:30 AM   #58
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Yes, I'm skeptical too. They said that about the 135i but when it came out, it was watered down by BMW USA. The interior options were only leather and fake leather. Most were also loaded. The purpose of the 1M was to test the club sport model. BMW expected most to be ordered as strippers for club racing. The opposite happened so the test tells BMW that people want all the fluffy stuff. Since we pay the bills, the will give us what we have asked for with our wallets and spec sheets.
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      07-10-2012, 11:02 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Do you have an idea how long it took for the BMW board to authorize the 1M which was relatively cheap and easy due to its "parts bin" character?
In an interview with BimmerFile in August 2011 Brian Watts (Head of Marketing & Sales for BMW M worldwide) stated that the BMW board first rejected the idea of developing a 1M ("The first time we came up with the concept [for developing a 1M] we got shot down"). Got shelved for some time. But ///M boss Dr. Kay Segler put the project back on the table and convinced the BMW board to have a go at it. Without Dr. Kay Segler the 1M as we know it would not have come into fruition and commercialized.

Check from 04:18 onwards:
http://www.bimmerfile.com/2011/08/21...les-for-bmw-m/
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      07-10-2012, 01:38 PM   #60
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Yes, I understand the hurdles Dr Kay Segler had to overcome to bring us the 1M "Pony Car". It was that^ same level of enthusiasm, that cost him his job.

As... father Marketing declared the //1M too valuable.
(Too valuable even if it cost $60k, it was still too valuable for BMW to offer it any longer, as it messed up their pretty portfolio)



Tell me, why do people doubt the focus of this new M2..? Could it be the previous lip-service us enthusiasts get... instead of buyable products?
We want the M2 to happen and happen in the way that you envisage. Just the recent facts and tendencies make some of us (like me) more skeptical. By the way, there is a front page thread in bimmerpost going full speed now about a Bill Casswell (Jalopnik) article about the "death of M". Interesting read and I recommend to everyone.
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      07-10-2012, 01:57 PM   #61
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Yes, we ask for lighter more performance oriented cars then we buy them loaded and gripe exhaust drone, missing vanity lights, no automatic. There are many hard core guys out there but many were priced out again. If you look at all the M cars out there 90-95% are loaded. If you watch Dr Z introduce the 1M he says that he thinks most will be ordered bare bones. He was wrong and he is gone. Now BMW will build not what a few want but what the masses actually buy. If you want a low frills lightweight rear drive car scion and Subaru are cleaning up with their FR-S / BRZ. So much for Zeglers vision of bringing a younger crowd to to the M line.

He is still my hero though... He tried his best and I thank him for my 1M which as I said before will probably be the coolest old-school M car for me.
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      07-10-2012, 02:46 PM   #62
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Yes, we ask for lighter more performance oriented cars then we buy them loaded and gripe exhaust drone, missing vanity lights, no automatic. There are many hard core guys out there but many were priced out again. If you look at all the M cars out there 90-95% are loaded. If you watch Dr Z introduce the 1M he says that he thinks most will be ordered bare bones. He was wrong and he is gone. Now BMW will build not what a few want but what the masses actually buy. If you want a low frills lightweight rear drive car scion and Subaru are cleaning up with their FR-S / BRZ. So much for Zeglers vision of bringing a younger crowd to to the M line.

He is still my hero though... He tried his best and I thank him for my 1M which as I said before will probably be the coolest old-school M car for me.
Nacho, I know the loaded v stripped is a pet peeve of yours but honestly, the 1M is not a great example. Loaded or stripped, our 1Ms are NOT light cars by any stretch of the imagination.
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      07-10-2012, 03:10 PM   #63
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Nacho, I know the loaded v stripped is a pet peeve of yours but honestly, the 1M is not a great example. Loaded or stripped, our 1Ms are NOT light cars by any stretch of the imagination.
I have to agree with that. It seems to be a marketing trick designed mainly for US/NA market to call the 1M lighter than the 135i etc. since its launch. It really is not any lighter, the difference in NA is because of the different equipment levels, especially the sunroof and it is negligable anyway. In other markets, (German or Europe for example) the 1M is usually quoted as slightly heavier than the 135i and just 85 kgs. (more or less a passenger) lighter than a E92 M3 which is a quite big car. The German weight data is better for comparison purposes because of very similar base equipment levels there (which means all base cars very stripped). In fact, since the M3 has power seats as standart and 1M not, the real (totally identical equipment levels) difference between a 1M and M3 coupe is even less than that 85 kgs., maybe 70-75 kgs. My former family sedan, the four door 2006 E90 330i Msport was around 1400 kg. compared to 1495 kg. of the 1M.

It is not a very light car, our 1M, just does not feel it due to torque etc.
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      07-10-2012, 03:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by b33g33 View Post
Nacho, I know the loaded v stripped is a pet peeve of yours but honestly, the 1M is not a great example. Loaded or stripped, our 1Ms are NOT light cars by any stretch of the imagination.
Great point...and I do have to remind myself not to beat a dead horse. I think both of you misunderstood me. The 1M was the lightest M car I could get. Yes it is too heavy and if you read my previous post, I was for a 4 cylinder to make it truly light. I'm a fan of the BRZ and FRS because they are light by today's standards. I wanted an M car and this was the lightest available today. I ordered it stripped to make it the lightest possible.

The thing that made me worry about loaded cars is from what Dr. Zegler said and some of the //M folk ar Garching that the 1M was an attempt to recapture younger club types and they were watching to see how it went and they were surprised by the success but also surprised about how people wanted more of features/colors etc.

I will yield my space to our fellow members and not hog up the thread.

Thanks for reminder. I already got one from Dack today. : )

By the way despite its shortcomings in weight, etc. I still think the 1M is the coolest M car out there right now for us crotchety dead-horse-beating guys!

: )
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      07-10-2012, 03:51 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by formula M View Post
Yes, I understand the hurdles Dr Kay Segler had to overcome to bring us the 1M "Pony Car". It was that^ same level of enthusiasm, that cost him his job.
As far as I remember Dr. Segler came over from Mini and after succesfully completing the 1M project went back to Mini. Where did you read or hear that the 1M Project "cost him his job" ? Man, BMW should award this guy a medal or fat bonus, because the 1M Project exceeded all expectations, even thàt tremendously that around September 2011 BMW decided to significantly increase the initial production figure of 2,700 to 6,242 (http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...php?p=12301755). It earned BMW top dollar and extra esteem for ///M cars, like a fresh breath of air or new blood. The 1M Project was a gamble that could have turned so badly, a test case whether the market was ready for a nimble high performance BMW car and additional ///M clients, notwithstanding the ongoing economic crisis. People could have blamed BMW that they should have known that the world was not particularly waiting for a 1M type of car.

Probably you're referring to the fact that 1M might have cannabilized M3 sales, turning potential M3 clients into 1M buyers. But, wait a second, isn't that rather a tell-tale sign about the concept of the current gen M3 ? Personally I never planned to exchange my E46 M3 for an E9X M3. But then the 1M came up the radar and I was sold on the idea: it was the best next thing around the corner - the new kid in town, and a bloody skilled one. Without the 1M I was probably still driving my M3, waiting for the next gen M3 (a bit like upgrading from Windows XP to Windows 7, deliberately skipping the Windows Vista stage) or P-car.

And about the "stripper v. loaded" discussion. All comes down to personal preferences. If you're using the 1M for track purposes only, get it as stripped as possible. But if you and your significant other are using the 1M as daily driver in real life situations, then don't mind to get the comfort of available bells and whistles, even if it increases weight and fuel consumption and only marginally impacts performance and maximum driving joy. No prizes to win by outrunning other cars at traffic-lights. To each his own.
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Last edited by Artemis; 07-10-2012 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Updated the 1M production figures according to info in a post of July 10, 2012 by forum member Ismotind
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      07-10-2012, 09:48 PM   #66
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A lot has been made about what cost Dr. K his job, what you hear often is him fostering the ///M SAV travesty, but we will never know. Then again, his personally car has been a X6 ///M so he did take it kinda close to his heart. Be that as it may, without him we likely would not have had the 1M...
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