BMW 1-Series Forum (F20) 135i - 1Addicts.com > Second Generation 1 Series Forum > 2012 BMW 1-Series Sporthatch (F20) Discussion > Report: BMW M135i with 320 HP Coming Next Summer
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      11-23-2011, 09:30 AM   #45
vladberca
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In my opinion the name is not so important. U can choose no badge on the car.
The most important thing is how the car will perform
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      11-23-2011, 12:25 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
BMW 328i F30 | 1505 kg | FI 2.0l I4 | 255 PS | 350 Nm | 0-100 km/h: 5,9 sec
BMW 335i F30 | 1585 kg | FI 3.0l I6 | 306 PS | 400 Nm | 0-100 km/h: 5,5 sec

328i is 6.000 cheaper than 335i.

The I6 does not justify better performance anymore, compared to the I4, unless it has 640i F13 engine spec, 320 PS and 450 Nm. With this spec in the 1 Series it will enter 1 Series M E82 territory, what can not happen, as the M2 F22 has to be the top of all. The fact being in BMW model designation have nothing more to do with engines, there very well can be an M135i, but not powered by a N55 as we may think, but buy an M tuned N20 with close to 300 PS.

Now BMW maybe really decided to put N55 in the F20, but from what I know it cannot be. Time will tell.
Agree!

If BMW really put N55 in the F2x 1er and 2er, then the M2 will be forced to also have a N55, since in US market, people will not buy a turbo I4 M2, knowing there is a turbo I6 135i/235i available, no matter how BMW claim the I4 will save how many weight. No need to mention all people know the turbo I6 will have much better tuning potential than the I4.

But now the N55 M2 will cause trouble for the F3x M3/M4, since they are all N55 based, it can be very easy to tune the M2 to have equal or higher hp output than the stock M3/M4; or we can say after tuning, both M2 and M3/M4 will have similar output. If this really happens, the M2 will not have sufficient gap with the M3/M4 to justify its existence. In this case, who will buy a much expensive and heavier M3/M4?

This is very simple and straight forward logic, I just can't believe BMW will make such I6 135/235 decision.
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      11-23-2011, 01:13 PM   #47
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Agree!

If BMW really put N55 in the F2x 1er and 2er, then the M2 will be forced to also have a N55, since in US market, people will not buy a turbo I4 M2, knowing there is a turbo I6 135i/235i available, no matter how BMW claim the I4 will save how many weight. No need to mention all people know the turbo I6 will have much better tuning potential than the I4.

But now the N55 M2 will cause trouble for the F3x M3/M4, since they are all N55 based, it can be very easy to tune the M2 to have equal or higher hp output than the stock M3/M4; or we can say after tuning, both M2 and M3/M4 will have similar output. If this really happens, the M2 will not have sufficient gap with the M3/M4 to justify its existence. In this case, who will buy a much expensive and heavier M3/M4?

This is very simple and straight forward logic, I just can't believe BMW will make such I6 135/235 decision.
Maybe for the same reason people buy the heavier 335coupe over the 135....
Not trying to be condescending.... just trying to find similar real examples...
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      11-23-2011, 01:38 PM   #48
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Maybe for the same reason people buy the heavier 335coupe over the 135....
Not trying to be condescending.... just trying to find similar real examples...
Large percent of non M-car product's consumer are more focus on daily usage practicality, hence 335 coupe has big advantage over 135, and the sale volume prove this.

But M-car consumer normally are performance oriented, at least daily usage practicality is not their first priority. For example much more M3 coupes are sold than the M3 sedan. The same applied for M2 and M3/4 (especially M4), if somehow based on the same N55, M2 can matched M4's output and they share the same suspension, I won't give any credit for M4's backseat is roomier and even I won't consider M4 at all.
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      11-23-2011, 02:04 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by felixcat View Post
Large percent of non M-car product's consumer are more focus on daily usage practicality, hence 335 coupe has big advantage over 135, and the sale volume prove this.

But M-car consumer normally are performance oriented, at least daily usage practicality is not their first priority. For example much more M3 coupes are sold than the M3 sedan. The same applied for M2 and M3/4 (especially M4), if somehow based on the same N55, M2 can matched M4's output and they share the same suspension, I won't give any credit for M4's backseat is roomier and even I won't consider M4 at all.
I see your point now
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      11-23-2011, 03:35 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by felixcat View Post
Agree!

If BMW really put N55 in the F2x 1er and 2er, then the M2 will be forced to also have a N55, since in US market, people will not buy a turbo I4 M2, knowing there is a turbo I6 135i/235i available, no matter how BMW claim the I4 will save how many weight. No need to mention all people know the turbo I6 will have much better tuning potential than the I4.
OK - I can't speak about the US customers... but at least here in germany enthusiasts not only buy numbers.
In case BMW would decide for 135/235 with N55 and an M2 with S20 (N20 derivate) you could expect at least an S20 with 2.2 - 2.3l displacement with 160hp/l -> translating to 360-370 hp and of course all the other M goodies: More lightweight, different/wider track, LSD, Carbon roof...

Never would I and many others prefere a boring N55 135i over such an M2!

And regarding tuning potential: BMW does not have to care about it! How many percent of N55 owners will decide to tune? Less than 1 percent. So it simply doesn't matter. Moreover N55 is not that tuning friendly as N54 as we all know. Pushing it beyond 360hp (stable/reliably) needs more than just ECU update, but real hardware... a fool who is preferring this over a perfect package like an M2.


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Originally Posted by felixcat View Post
But now the N55 M2 will cause trouble for the F3x M3/M4, since they are all N55 based, it can be very easy to tune the M2 to have equal or higher hp output than the stock M3/M4; or we can say after tuning, both M2 and M3/M4 will have similar output. If this really happens, the M2 will not have sufficient gap with the M3/M4 to justify its existence. In this case, who will buy a much expensive and heavier M3/M4?

This is very simple and straight forward logic, I just can't believe BMW will make such I6 135/235 decision.
In case BMW decides to go for I6 in he M2 and M3/4, I expect huge differences in hardware. Think about bi-turbo setup in an M2 vs. tri-turbo setup in M3/M4. Additionally M3/M4 could have share the same block but have highend pistons and stuff that allow 700rpm more ...
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      11-23-2011, 04:26 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
OK - I can't speak about the US customers... but at least here in germany enthusiasts not only buy numbers.
In case BMW would decide for 135/235 with N55 and an M2 with S20 (N20 derivate) you could expect at least an S20 with 2.2 - 2.3l displacement with 160hp/l -> translating to 360-370 hp and of course all the other M goodies: More lightweight, different/wider track, LSD, Carbon roof...

Never would I and many others prefere a boring N55 135i over such an M2!

And regarding tuning potential: BMW does not have to care about it! How many percent of N55 owners will decide to tune? Less than 1 percent. So it simply doesn't matter. Moreover N55 is not that tuning friendly as N54 as we all know. Pushing it beyond 360hp (stable/reliably) needs more than just ECU update, but real hardware... a fool who is preferring this over a perfect package like an M2.




In case BMW decides to go for I6 in he M2 and M3/4, I expect huge differences in hardware. Think about bi-turbo setup in an M2 vs. tri-turbo setup in M3/M4. Additionally M3/M4 could have share the same block but have highend pistons and stuff that allow 700rpm more ...
Well, in US market for most people, number of cylinders is somewhat equal to status/position. Because for 99.9% production cars, more cylinder engine option costs more money; at the same time they know for the current most expensive production car in the world, it also has the most number of cylinders among all production car in the market.

Therefore at this moment it is extremely hard to persuade consumers in the US that for the same car model, fewer cylinder version can be better and more expensive than more cylinder version. Most people just do not believe this. It's like forcing them to change their religion, nearly impossible.
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      11-23-2011, 04:38 PM   #52
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So if you could choose between an E30 325i and an E30 M3 you would choose the one with the most cylinders?

Interesting choice.
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      11-23-2011, 04:58 PM   #53
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Quote:
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So if you could choose between an E30 325i and an E30 M3 you would choose the one with the most cylinders?

Interesting choice.
That was the first time that BMW making a M3, not so mature marketing strategy. Had it designed to be a 6 cylinder engine, its sales figure would be much higher. Compared to the E36 M3, US sales figure grew like 300%.

BMW sold 16,202 of E30 M3, and it sold 71,242 E36 M3 worldwide. See how number of cylinders can do the magic and dramatically change the sales?
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      11-23-2011, 05:45 PM   #54
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The E30 M3 won races, the E36 M3 won in sales figures. But the question wasn't about the E30 or the E36, it was about the E30 325i and M3.

And actually, it wasn't so much a question but more of an example how a 4 cylinder could be better than a 6 cylinder.
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      11-23-2011, 06:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipe View Post
The E30 M3 won races, the E36 M3 won in sales figures. But the question wasn't about the E30 or the E36, it was about the E30 325i and M3.

And actually, it wasn't so much a question but more of an example how a 4 cylinder could be better than a 6 cylinder.
I am not questioning the performance aspect of the E30 M3. Mechanical performance won't guarantee sales. For example, it is not hard to get 1000+ hp using a turbo V8, V10 or V12 without any issue, but Bugatti decided to use a W16 in Veyron. It is not because of mechanical/technical aspects but aims to achieve the product's social status/position goal.

E30 M3 is the only car in BMW's recent history that a M car has fewer cylinders than its non-M version. After E30, next generations such as E36, E46, E90 M3's engine all have equal or more number of cylinders than their non-M versions. If using fewer cylinders for M car is really successful, BMW won't refuse to do it again, but they just do not do it after E30.

You see, more cylinders means more cost to manufacture, more heavy weight on the front etc. But BMW still do it, there must be some very strong reasons.
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      11-23-2011, 07:13 PM   #56
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Time will tell. I'd prefer a straight six for a number of reasons. But when you look at the new 3 Series, BMW says the 328i is a better handling car than the 335i. Seems important to me for the M2.
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      11-24-2011, 11:17 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felixcat View Post
Well, in US market for most people, number of cylinders is somewhat equal to status/position. Because for 99.9% production cars, more cylinder engine option costs more money; at the same time they know for the current most expensive production car in the world, it also has the most number of cylinders among all production car in the market.

Therefore at this moment it is extremely hard to persuade consumers in the US that for the same car model, fewer cylinder version can be better and more expensive than more cylinder version. Most people just do not believe this. It's like forcing them to change their religion, nearly impossible.
Unfortunately this it true. People equate performance with engine size which is generally true for NA engines. However with forced induction, all bets are off and performance is influenced as much by boost as displacement.

Ford is currently bucking the bigger is better trend with the Eco-Boost engine in their trucks. It is a sweet motor for a truck. With fuel prices where they are and the looming CAFE mandates, the smaller, forced induction engines should start gaining popularity.
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      11-24-2011, 03:39 PM   #58
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Quote:
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Now BMW maybe really decided to put N55 in the F20, but from what I know it cannot be. Time will tell.
BMW have already said it will be. When the F20 was announced a UK magezine asked BMW why they kept it rwd, and the BMW man (can't remember who it was) said that they had to keep the six cyl engines for the F20 platform for the US market... i.e the forthcoming 2 series cars.

It maybe that certain EU markets might not get the six cyl cars sold in them, due to the small numbers sold, in the same way that the E81/E87 130i was dropped from the UK market in 2009 because so few were being sold.
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      11-24-2011, 11:55 PM   #59
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I've never driven an E30 M3, but from what I've read its engine has mostly top end power that needs to be revved very hard to get good performance. I think the six cylinder in the 325is from the same era was a better all rounder in normal usage. It was only when BMW brought out they six cylinder E36 M3, that the M3 sales started to become significant.

Last edited by John_01; 11-26-2011 at 05:41 AM. Reason: just typos
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      11-27-2011, 10:55 PM   #60
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Don't you guys see that this argument is EXACTLY why BMW would have an M235i and a separate M2. So both camps can have the car they want, you can have a lighter 4 cylinder car with superior handling or you can have one that's a little more daily-driving oriented with a 6 cylinder.
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      11-29-2011, 03:20 AM   #61
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Agreed mate...

Bmw M135i - The fastest, best handling, most luxurious hatch in history!! BRING IT ON!!!
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      11-29-2011, 11:07 AM   #62
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can the n20 be bored and/or stroked to more than 2.0ltrs, say to 2.2? otherwise it seems problematic to exceed by an adequate margin the output of the 135/235 whether it has a further tuned n20(300hp/280ft-lbs) or worse yet an n55(300+hp/300+tq. with additional tuning potential). is half of the m5/m6 engine, in other words a v4 out of the question? i think that giving the 128/228 240hp and 260+tq. and 0-60mph about 5.5-5.7s, set the bar very high to create 2 models above it, particularly if the m2 must have 4cyl. i would have given the 128 a 3cyl w/ 180hp/195ft-lbs., the 135 an n20 w/240-250hp/266ft-lbs. keeping them as light as possible and the m2 a maximally tuned 2.2ltr. n20(or 2.2ltr. v4 if possible) with about 330hp/295-300tq., also as light as possible. of course 3cyl. might not sell in the u.s.

Last edited by hector; 11-29-2011 at 11:23 AM.
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