Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh
My apologies, really. I thought you and I had a fair discussion. I'm not sure why you should feel sorry for me.
This is really between Clifton and me, for some reason he has issues with things I post on the Forum. I try to state as much factual information as possible (I was goofing with the picture of the Fiero with the two BMWs), most if it I have from memory and some I confirm via searches on the internet and some books I have. Clifton tends to make up false arguments from my postings only to then discount them (but I never actually made the arguments he tries to link to me). For example I never said the Fiero was the first monocoque chassis car. And in reality we're all using the term "Monocoque" incorrectly, as monocoque really implies a vehicle where the structural load is carried by the "skin" (body panels) of the vehicle. The Z1 and Fiero implore a monocoque frame where the load is carried by the skeletal structure and not the body of the vehicle. The proper term of the design is "Space Frame", which I've used several times in this thread.
Despite what Clifton tried to imply, my point of view regarding all this is based on my first-hand readings of the articles about the development of the Fiero starting in the late ‘70s. Unfortunately most of those articles have never been digitized and put on the internet. The Fireo was quite the talk of the industry back during its development. Clifton is the one who refers to the Fiero as a “turd”. Back in the day, when compared to its contemporaries, it actually was a well-built and decent performing automobile (especially in later GT form). As I said to you, my Brother had a 1984 2M4 he bought when the car first came out; in fact he saw the car before its release when it was being crash-tested at the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) in Ruckersville, Virginia. I spent several thousand miles behind the wheel of that car and also have extensive experience with the E21, E30 and E36, driving them all in the same time period, so I can say with some authority how the BMWs compare to the Fiero. I’ve not driven a Z1, but based on its drive train (E30) and suspension E30/36 front end, I can reasonably imagine how it drives similar to an E30 and E36 (not sure how much the Z Axle makes a difference to the handling).
I can’t write a rational response like this with Clinton since he has a propensity to pass personal insults in his posts. He’d do much better if he refrained from the insults. I suspect Clifton is barely older than the Fiero itself and doesn't have the background about it as I do. And besides my post was never about the Fiero being better than the Z1; it's been about how BMW spins the idea that the car was so highly advanced for its time. The same basic structure the two cars share (space frame and all-plastic body) was done by GM first, six years ahead of BMW, there is no refuting that fact.
And as far as technologies go with the Z1, the most important legacy I found was the development of the alternating current (AC) HID (high intensity discharge) headlamps. BMW derrived 50 patents from the Z1 development. From what I read BMW developed HIDs for the Z1 and are noted as first used in a production car on the 1991 BMW 7 Series. I'm not sure if the HIDs for the Z1 were AC or DC (I suspect AC) and are same basic units used on the 7. Lincoln is noted for the first-use of DC HIDs in 1996.
Truly I like the Z1, it is a neat car. I'm not that fond of the styling though. And it is rare car, keeping prices high, but I've also seen well-kept Fieros go for more than their original sale price (not counting for inflation). There is one in Washington State, USA, that is brand new with a few 100 miles on it selling for $40,000 USD (It probably had a $12,000 sticker price). It’s not really fair to compare the two car’s current market value as the Z1 was basically a one-off design where as the Fiero was a mass-produced, inexpensive, high MPG commuter car.
Cheers. Maybe I’ll get to Europe one day and we can have a beer together.
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Dear Efthreeoh,
It's not that I won't let you make your statements.
But the fact is that this is a BMW forum and this topic is 25 years Z1. So on this forum we should be talking about Beemers and not GM Fiero's. 
Your point was made a long time ago in this thread so there no point going on with your Fiero statement. You sort of killed the subject of the thread and the fun of the subject with the Fiero thing! And this was quit pointless!
So out of respect to the people who want to enjoy the forum and talk about Beemers you should stop this Fiero discussion.
If you still like to fight it out I think Clifton offered you the possibility to do this through PM's.
Again no hartfeelings and you are always welcome for a beer when you are in Holland as is Clifton ofcourse!
Cheers and keep the fibe possitiv in life,
HH